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Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

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Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#171

Post by jjoonathan »

coliveira wrote: post #162
jjoonathan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what happened. Yes, the US was incredibly stupid and had a big hand (the biggest) in its own downfall. No, that doesn't mean China's hands are clean in the matter. Ultimately, politics are amoral and it doesn't matter, but to the extent that we're interested in making purely academic moral distinctions there's no need to whitewash China's actions. They did us dirty, and if we have the option to do them di…

Let's make things clear: China didn't invade the US. China didn't steal natural resources from the US. China didn't make Americans slaves. China didn't promise something they couldn't deliver. They just played the capitalist game with the US and became rich. Why should I harbor bad intentions against them?

Let's make things clear: you shouldn't. You should aspire to amorality, just as they have done. It's not about revenge, it's about winning, and doing what it takes to win.

Half of the people in America look at foreign policy through the lens of naive capitalism and the other half look at foreign policy through the lens of naive morality. Both are incredibly foolish, as China has taught us.

To be clear, the current administration has matched rhetoric about "winning" with some very stupid moves. I'm not a fan of stupid moves, but I see people object to both smart and stupid moves on the basis that they aren't good, or right, or fair -- and I object to that. Politics is amoral.

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#172

Post by [deleted] »

ardy42 wrote: post #168
javajosh wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans in 1941 were much different than they are now. My sense is that Americans then were more practical, more humble (while still being feisty), and they had a better handle on physical and social reality. We could do so much so quickly then. But now, during late-stage capitalism, information systems dominate physical systems, and that's a great way to lose a war. When everyone wants their cut, wants their say,…

> where getting fired without a personal support net means homelessness I think you're spot on, but I want to point out the above situation was created by design . IIRC, part of the creation of a modern market system was the demolition of traditional social safety nets, so peasants were put in the situation where the alternative to selling their labor in the market was starvation. Early market advocates understood th…

[deleted]

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#175

Post by tooltalk »

simonh wrote: post #43
keypusher wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does research, design and software but all the manufacturing and assembly is done in China by Chinese companies. Mostly Samsung and Foxconn. Nvidia is the same but the chips are fabbed by TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor).

Very few iPhone components are actually manufactured in China even now, it's just where all the parts are assembled, but the value contribution of assembly is only a few dollars per device[0]. Back in the day as much as about 40% of the components by value were manufactured in the USA, including the early Samsung CPUs made in a fab in Texas, and Gorilla Glass made by Corning in New York state. That was actually the c…

China accounts for only about 5% of global semi sales, according to SIAC's 2019 annual report. The US still dominates in logic and analog sub-product categories by a wide margin.

> Back in the day as much as about 40%...

40% sounds too high -- I think 18% at max is more realistic. Apple's A chip cost was estimated between $12-$20 or about 7%-8% of total BOM. Aside from Apple's A chips fabbed by Samsung and baseband/RF/sensors by Qualcomm/Skyworks, I can't think of any other significant US components in Apple's mobile product. The most valuable components in the iPhones in those days were DRAM/NAND flash storage (about 30% of BOM) and displays and they came from either Japan or South Korea. Micron wasn't an significant supplier until Apple's relationship with Samsung soured.

Sure, who can forget Tim Apple's rare CBS interview where he proudly declared the engines of their portable devices were made in the US, after which Apple promptly outsourced it to TSMC in Taiwan. I suspect that that was a calculated move to make the final defense of their outsourcing practices before moving that out of the US as well.

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#176

Post by javajosh »

georgeecollins wrote: post #164
ardy42 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America is the world power least worried about physical geography and locations if and when the shooting starts. 2 oceans as moats, plenty of oil and natural resources on its home turf, and all potential flashpoints on the other side of the world. Can you grow semiconductors on corn plants? Big moats don't help with embargoes, and if your economy is based on international trade (like the globalization crowd has cha…

The US actually depends on trade much less than most nations. Any economic embargo would be bad, but in general much worse for almost any other nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_trade-to-... Also, surprisingly, more people in the US work in manufacturing today than in 1939. And obviously the $ value of that manufacturing is much higher due to increased productivity. https://thelevelfield.com/…

It seems like our inability to get basic civilian infrastructure work done in a reasonable time-frame and cost bodes ill for any wartime effort.

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#177

Post by setpatchaddress »

TMWNN wrote: post #49
supernova87a wrote: post #10

I guess it harkens back to their first few years, when they decided to sell off their DRAM business? Although, not so clear now whether it means they're on another course to greatness...

Yes, I was thinking of the same precedent. IBM got out of memory at about the same time, I believe, and for the same reason: Too low margins to make continuing to fight against the tough competition worthwhile. >Although, not so clear now whether it means they're on another course to greatness... This is the $64,000 question. Intel got out of the memory business when it was clear by 1985 that CPUs were its future. I…

Nvidia is interesting. If Intel had bought it, would they have wasted the opportunity?

Of all of the others, StrongARM/Xscale seems obviously the biggest missed opportunity. Threw it away one year before the iPhone.

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#178

Post by ksec »

mathattack wrote: post #91
bnt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real shitshow starts when the CFO becomes the CEO (as is usually the case), so Intel is pretty much dead as is US tech innovation on this scale (until VCs do what China does and start pouring money into hard stuff, not just fluffy software).

It’s natural for large tech companies to enter the harvesting business when they can’t innovate anymore. Look at IBM. They just can’t innovate, so they do all kinds of financial engineering on the back of a robust customer audit program. Eventually that money gets recycled into funding earlier stage companies. (If a company buys back stock, the old investors have to put the money somewhere)

> Look at IBM. They just can’t innovate

They are still so far ahead in Hardware I dont see how they are not innovating.

Software, Marketing, Sales, Operation, Management ..... well pretty much everything apart from CPU / Big Iron related really.

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#179

Post by baybal2 »

georgeecollins wrote: post #164
ardy42 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America is the world power least worried about physical geography and locations if and when the shooting starts. 2 oceans as moats, plenty of oil and natural resources on its home turf, and all potential flashpoints on the other side of the world. Can you grow semiconductors on corn plants? Big moats don't help with embargoes, and if your economy is based on international trade (like the globalization crowd has cha…

The US actually depends on trade much less than most nations. Any economic embargo would be bad, but in general much worse for almost any other nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_trade-to-... Also, surprisingly, more people in the US work in manufacturing today than in 1939. And obviously the $ value of that manufacturing is much higher due to increased productivity. https://thelevelfield.com/…

USA's manufacturing statistics is weird. There are a lot of "manufacturing" companies with billions in revenue without a single factory in USA.

First, it is funny accounting, second, it is LOWER productivity of most companies, not higher, which is counter-weighted in statistics by few supergiant companies like Boeing, third, it is slow shift to lower value goods, and processes in smaller companies, and sky higher ones in big ones.

Re: Intel exits memory business, sale to Hynix for $9B

#180

Post by PeCaN »

mathattack wrote: post #91
bnt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real shitshow starts when the CFO becomes the CEO (as is usually the case), so Intel is pretty much dead as is US tech innovation on this scale (until VCs do what China does and start pouring money into hard stuff, not just fluffy software).

It’s natural for large tech companies to enter the harvesting business when they can’t innovate anymore. Look at IBM. They just can’t innovate, so they do all kinds of financial engineering on the back of a robust customer audit program. Eventually that money gets recycled into funding earlier stage companies. (If a company buys back stock, the old investors have to put the money somewhere)

Ironically enough I feel like IBM is actually an example of a giant company that, against all odds, is somehow still innovating, at least with its POWER CPUs. They're doing really interesting and open-ended things like CAPI and the upcoming Open Memory Interface.
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