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Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

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Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#221

Post by uxp100 »

evan_ wrote: post #41
ars wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does Foxconn get out of it? From the article they seem to have lost lots of money.

It says they failed to qualify for a subsidy so I assume they were planning on getting money from that.

They were tax credits with requirements they did not meet. If they were planning on taking advantage of those credits, it seems like they would have put in the minimum effort to at least appear to meet them. Something a little stranger happened here. I think related to global politics, not just something with Trump or Scott Walker.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#222

Post by ineedasername »

maxerickson wrote: post #83
ineedasername wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, plenty of manufacturing doesn't require state of the art. Start with that level today, and you can still use it a decade from now for products that don't require bleeding edge. Take chip fab for example: 45nm chips appeared around 2008, and cutting edge today is 5nm. Yet something like an arduino may come in around 200nm, the Pi 4 is still 28nm. So there's a fairly long lifespan for manufacturing facilities. So…

They said they were going to make a chip fab in Kenosha?

I was using that as an example of manufacturing capabilities that are not worthless as soon as something better comes along. It's a clearer example than more vague references to electronics that aren't as complex or cutting edge as the latest smart phones. That comparison is true as well, but I thought something more concrete would make the point more clearly.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#223

Post by owlie »

Judgmentality wrote: post #134
danhak wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's before we get to the point that corporations, as a practical matter, are formed under state laws, so why is the federal government giving them rights? That's an interesting point. Marriages are formed under state law as well, and it doesn't seem controversial to me that the federal government grants that relationship special privileges.

> Marriages are formed under state law as well, and it doesn't seem controversial to me that the federal government grants that relationship special privileges I think the only reason this isn't controversial is because people don't think about it. The fact that people are conditioned to get married, not to mention the tax benefits, is pretty fucking weird if you stop and think about it. Supposedly our country was me…

> The fact that people are conditioned to get married, not to mention the tax benefits, is pretty fucking weird if you stop and think about it.

You might be interested in the concept of the relationship escalator, then.

https://solopoly.net/2012/11/29/riding-the-relationship-esca...

(Disclaimer: I'm not poly, but I really like how poly folk interrogate relationship norms. Don't be scared off by the poly blog!)

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#224

Post by spamizbad »

matwood wrote: post #212
credit_guy wrote: post #208

I see a lot of popular outrage here, and I love me some popular outrage against the big bad boy just like everyone else, but still, what was Foxconn's gain here? The billions in subsidies were in the form of tax relief, they will not see a dime if they don't build the factory. The bulldozed houses in Wisconsin, while a loss for the state, don't make Foxconn any richer. In the end, the only thing Foxconn achieved was…

At the risk of getting too political, the gain was getting Trump off their back. Apple did something similar in TX [1]. Give Trump a photo op (which everyone knows he loves), and then don't actually do anything. Trump moves on, and the business can continue as before. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/20/20974999/trump-is-lying-...

I guess we'll see if this hurt Trump in 2 weeks, but wasn't this thing part of why Scott Walker lost his reelection in 2018?

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#225

Post by jtbayly »

mdorazio wrote: post #164
Thorrez wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the church itself doesn't have freedom of religion. But for the members of the church to have freedom of religion they need to be able to exercise their freedom as an organized group. The end result is the same: the government is limited in what restrictions it can place on the group, because to restrict the group is to restrict the members.

I don't understand your argument. The church members individually have the right to practice their religion however they want so long as it doesn't impinge on others' rights or laws. The group aspect really doesn't come into play at all. In the same way, those same individuals can contribute as individuals to whatever cause they choose. The problem is when resources get pooled and an organization rather than its indi…

> The problem is when resources get pooled and an organization rather than its individuals decides where to allocate those resources politically.

Like unions?

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#226

Post by bilbo0s »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #202
Osiris wrote: post #183

> In the base case scenario the state would break even in 2042. The government ended up paying over $200k for each job created. It sickens me what people will do to push their own little kingdom of power. This guy wanted to get reelected so he was willing to give away $3 billion of people's hard earned money and screw up hundreds of people's lives (all the students and others that were hired, left better jobs, then g…

When you put it that way it doesn't actually sound that abnormal or out of line for state politics. States in the Boston-DC corridor are rife with bullshit state police task forces that mostly just collect paychecks, government departments staffed with cronies, etc. etc. They spin up programs that do things and then shut them down and leave people and businesses hanging with similar results to all the people this lef…

The Boston-DC corridor is extraordinarily wealthy. Wisconsin is now the poorest state in the upper midwest. No one told our corrupt politicians that yes you can do boondoggles, but you shouldn't do rich man boondoggles. We're not rich, and we tried to play like a big shot state, and sit at the high stakes table. Well, now the bill is becoming clear, we're out about $1 billion so far, and people are starting to complain. The time to complain was when we first saw, now ex-, governor Walker go sit down at the big shot table. We should have snatched him back right at that point. We let him make a horrible deal, rife with corrupt payouts to his cronies, on our behalf. That was dumb of us.

It's a lesson for other poor states. If you're poor, you're probably corrupt, but come Hell or high water, you cannot allow your corrupt politicians to get you in too deep. It's your taxes that will end up paying both the bills they incur, as well as the pensions they get when they leave office.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#228

Post by bilbo0s »

credit_guy wrote: post #208

I see a lot of popular outrage here, and I love me some popular outrage against the big bad boy just like everyone else, but still, what was Foxconn's gain here? The billions in subsidies were in the form of tax relief, they will not see a dime if they don't build the factory. The bulldozed houses in Wisconsin, while a loss for the state, don't make Foxconn any richer. In the end, the only thing Foxconn achieved was…

The gain was mostly in the form of payouts to Scott Walker's political cronies. I'll give you one guess which companies the hundreds of millions in highway and infrastructure "improvements" contracts went to. (Also, why did we even need to do those "improvements"?) Don't even get me started on the 3/4 of a billion dollar loan that the small suburb of Mt Pleasant took out. Which wouldn't be a problem, in a non-corrupt world, Mt Pleasant would have taken out a loan, and Mt Pleasant would have to pay it back. But in Wisconsin, Scott Walker, to help out his buddies down there, made a guarantee that tax payers everywhere except Mt Pleasant would have to pay back the loan. So now people in Dalton, Fox Lake, and Eau Claire have to pay the loan that people in Mt Pleasant unilaterally took out.

We can't even unwind that guarantee so that the people of Mt Pleasant have to pay their own bills. Because when we kicked Scott Walker out, his buddies in the legislature stripped the new governor we voted in of any power to unwind said deal before he could take office. Corruption in Wisconsin runs deep my friend.

So believe me, there was "gain" by corrupt parties all over the state. Just because Foxconn only breaks even, doesn't mean no one made money. It only means Foxconn won't lose money. The losers are all the taxpayers of Wisconsin, except for those taxpayers favored by Scott Walker.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#229

Post by tootie »

imtringued wrote: post #179
tootie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This investment made no sense. The state would have gotten a better deal by just hiring people directly.

That's what I'm thinking too. The only way you can salvage this is by canceling the contract with Foxconn and buying the empty buildings at rock bottom prices and grant funding to local startups who are allowed to use the buildings for a low price. At a minimum this would replace the fake jobs with real ones.

Good luck with that. Startups aren't chasing real estate. Gov Cuomo sunk a load of money trying to build a startup hub in western new york and it didn't work at all.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#230

Post by specialist »

pg_bot wrote: post #56
gruez wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worst ? what about citizens united? how often is eminent domain abused for economic development, compared to how much favorable legislation was passed for corporations?

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Yes, and...

The only way to win (on campaign spending) is to not play.

Moot campaign spending with (lowercase) democratic reforms. Public financing of campaigns, time boxing campaign season, restore fairness doctrine, etc.

As Sun Tzu advises, we should not fight on battlefields chosen by our opponents. Fund raising, campaign spending, mainstream media, Freedom Speeches™, presidential debates, ad nauseam, are all tar pits.

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