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When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

nytimes.com

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#261

Post by calf »

klyrs wrote: post #30
bigbubba wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? If you're getting good at doing something you love because you love doing it so much, I don't think 'grind' is a word you'd use to describe that time consuming process. I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity…

I've gotten good at a few things in life that required a "grind." The violin is the clearest example. Getting decent requires an hour or so a week -- you can generally fart around and play whatever's accessible to your skill level. Good requires an hour or two per day, of deliberate and focused practice. People don't play études for fun. Excellence requires several hours per day. Even Itzhak Perlman describes his pra…

> People don't play études for fun.

I do. I wish I could play them well.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#262

Post by stavros »

krageon wrote: post #249
StavrosK wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> usually a roundabout way of complaining you can’t say racist things anymore As an external observer, this seems to me exactly the problem. Discourse is so polarized, that nobody can say "this thing that started as a reaction to overt racism has gone too far" without people replying "that just means you're racist". The situation has come to where there are ridiculous abuses going on, and criticizing them is anathema…

> Discourse is so polarized, that nobody can say A large part of it is signaling through terminology. If you use terms such as "cancel culture" and "liberals", it's pretty clear you're either a right-wing US citizen or someone who wishes they were one. There are definitely people that are able to discuss certain social trends becoming a problem without using dogmatic terminology, which is where the conversation becom…

> If you use terms such as "cancel culture" and "liberals", it's pretty clear you're either a right-wing US citizen or someone who wishes they were one.

So you can't say "cancel culture has gone too far" without signaling you're right-wing? I'm not up to speed with the exact politics, but I've heard the term in non-right wing contexts.

Seems to me like that would make it impossible to talk about things, which is what I'm seeing. How would you talk about Twitter canceling people without using the term "cancel culture?

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#263

Post by [deleted] »

quesera wrote: post #131
ohazi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see homeschooling being potentially more interesting/engaging for a certain kind of student after the basics are out of the way, but this: > He didn't even learn how to read until he was around 10. to me, is fucking terrifying . All of the people I know who did better on their own than in a classroom were able to do so because they could gobble up half a library in a weekend. I think you need to be able to read…

> to me, is fucking terrifying. The non-intuitive thing about basic reading and math skills is this: If you delay the learning, you learn it much more quickly. So the (ordinary, with no developmental issues) kid who doesn't read until 10, can exceed his or her peers in just a couple years. The very unfortunate corollary, however, is this: The kid with developmental issues might go undiagnosed for a longer time than n…

[deleted]

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#264

Post by watwut »

cyberdrunk wrote: post #256
watwut wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And very little of what they did would be possible without writing and reading. Peasants did not entered Russian politics in meaningful way at all. Simply, being illiterate to the point where you cant even improve on super behind farming also makes you pretty crappy at anything politics. Peasants attacked local rules here and there, then being bloodily suppressed wherever things got tight. That was it. The monarchy,…

Intelligentsia does not mean "educated people". For example, capitalists or the tzar's family were not part of Inteligentsia. A lof of the military officers weren't either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia

> "As a status class, the intelligentsia includes artists, teachers and academics, writers, and the literary hommes de lettres.[3][4] Individual members of the intelligentsia are known as intellectuals."

I would love to see analysis under which Stalin was intellectual. And people I mentioned (except maybe programmers) are not.

> "In Russia, before the Bolshevik Revolution (1917), the term intelligentsia described the status class of educated people whose cultural capital (schooling, education, enlightenment) allowed them to assume practical political leadership."

Yeah, pretty much anyone able to participate in politics. Which literally means every person participating in Russian politics is intelligentsia by this definition. Notably, while not all officers and capitalists participated, those who did would be counted as intelligentsia. And they did participate and even achieved some.

> "In Eastern Europe, intellectuals were deprived of political influence and access to the effective levers of economic development; the intelligentsia were at the functional periphery of their societies."

Can confirm that intellectuals were hated by communists.

Calling communists intelligentsia is one way to delegitimize them, precisely because of their disdain for this class. That was strong political point and rhetoric, but fails when you then try to make it a point about impact of education on person.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#265

Post by mantap »

I was "unschooled" for some years. I was near the top of my class at school (not because I was smart, just because I paid attention and worked hard), and hence my teachers gave up on me. Expending time on a kid who is likely to get A's without intervention does nothing to improve the school's metrics/ranking.

I would have been fine in a good private school but my parents weren't rich and couldn't afford the fees. Somehow I convinced my parents to let me educate myself, and at least for me it was successful. I finally had time to teach myself programming, which at the time was not taught in school.

Would I recommend it to others? Kids should try school first and see if they benefit from it. Some kids love school and do very well out of the system. However, if school is failing your kid, they might be better off without it.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#266

Post by thotsBgone »

freshhawk wrote: post #199
xkgt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

// If you delay the learning, you learn it much more quickly. Is there any source for this?

Older children learn things faster than younger children, why would reading be an exception?

This is not true for everything, like speaking. If you don't learn language in the critical period, you will never master it.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#267

Post by cheschire »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #254
cheschire wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be mostly exposed to those areas where the schools get mid-to-high ratings. Education is absolutely limited based on income level. At the lower income levels the only thing taught is boredom, authority, and pointless busywork.

As bad as you make it sound, they are teaching kids stuff, even at less-than-wealthy school districts. Adult Literacy in the United States: https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp It's not perfect, but from the most remote deserts of Arizona to rural Appalachia, to Compton, to rural Colorado, our public school system chugs away. By hood or by crook, or by underfunded inner-city/rural public school, we're teaching…

That's a lot of words to support your pedantry. What did your own personal anecdote add to your point?

I suppose you prefer I use lots of words in place of the hyperbolic word "only" to satisfy your need for an equal level of granular evaluation of the unsuccessful education of kids in inner city locations.

What you've described as successful teaching describes learning through about 3rd grade. So one would hope that yes, after 12 years of school, kids would learn four years of basic skills.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#268

Post by rimliu »

ohazi wrote: post #23
t0mbstone wrote: post #7

I was homeschooled until the age of around 10, and then my family adopted a new approach called "lifestyle of learning", which is just another way of saying "unschooling". Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive. I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't prod…

I can see homeschooling being potentially more interesting/engaging for a certain kind of student after the basics are out of the way, but this: > He didn't even learn how to read until he was around 10. to me, is fucking terrifying . All of the people I know who did better on their own than in a classroom were able to do so because they could gobble up half a library in a weekend. I think you need to be able to read…

  > All of the people I know who did better on their own
  > than in a classroom were able to do so because they
  > could gobble up half a library in a weekend.
Can confirm. Small rural school (primary and middle), half of the teachers were not specialists on the subjects they taught. We were supposed to be learning English from the grade 4, but we had a "proper" English teacher for a year and then were taught by people who knew no English themselves. But I read a lot and it helped. I managed to be among the best students onward: be it the secondary school or the university. My take is: good teachers can motivate and inspire you a lot, but bad teachers can be ignored and should not hinder your education. I agree with Mark Twain here: "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education".

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#269

Post by phobosanomaly »

cheschire wrote: post #267
phobosanomaly wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As bad as you make it sound, they are teaching kids stuff, even at less-than-wealthy school districts. Adult Literacy in the United States: https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp It's not perfect, but from the most remote deserts of Arizona to rural Appalachia, to Compton, to rural Colorado, our public school system chugs away. By hood or by crook, or by underfunded inner-city/rural public school, we're teaching…

That's a lot of words to support your pedantry. What did your own personal anecdote add to your point? I suppose you prefer I use lots of words in place of the hyperbolic word "only" to satisfy your need for an equal level of granular evaluation of the unsuccessful education of kids in inner city locations. What you've described as successful teaching describes learning through about 3rd grade. So one would hope that…

Fair enough dude. I'm sorry you feel short-changed by the public school system. I'm sorry you weren't able to see the point of my anecdote. I'm sorry this conversation has become so confrontational. I don't think it needed to go that way.

Best of luck.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#270

Post by cyberdrunk »

watwut wrote: post #264
cyberdrunk wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligentsia does not mean "educated people". For example, capitalists or the tzar's family were not part of Inteligentsia. A lof of the military officers weren't either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia

> "As a status class, the intelligentsia includes artists, teachers and academics, writers, and the literary hommes de lettres.[3][4] Individual members of the intelligentsia are known as intellectuals." I would love to see analysis under which Stalin was intellectual. And people I mentioned (except maybe programmers) are not. > "In Russia, before the Bolshevik Revolution (1917), the term intelligentsia described the…

> I would love to see analysis under which Stalin was intellectual

The Wikipedia article conflates intelligentsia with intellectuals, which I don't agree with (I'm Polish, so I have some long-ingrained intuitions regarding those terms). Stalin, as an educated non-wealthy person (he studied to become a priest), can easily be seen as someone who is a member of inteligentsia.

> Which literally means every person participating in Russian politics is intelligentsia by this definition.

Tzar family or many of the old aristocratic families were not a member of intelligentsia and would probably be offended by the association. The key factor of being in inteligentsia was (from Wiki): "people engaged in the complex mental labours". The higher classes didn't do any labor.

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