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Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

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Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#81

Post by dodobirdlord »

staticautomatic wrote: post #78
pg_bot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Corporations don’t have speech interests. The majority’s opinion in Citizens United is premised upon the assertion that they do.

Sure they do. Corporations are owned by people, and those people have speech interests. If corporations didn’t have the right to free speech then a group of people campaigning for a politics cause would suddenly lose their right to free speech if they formed a corporation to simplify the activities, such as the joint handling of money or purchasing of ads.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#82

Post by ineedasername »

maxerickson wrote: post #72
tootie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate subsidies work very well in certain conditions. The biggest is in investing in industries have big long-term potential but huge upfront costs. Power generation is a good example. Subsidies also tend to work best with a portfolio like a VC fund. The other option is for a very mature industries with inelastic demand where subsidies go directly to pushing down prices. Like with food and fuel.

Isn't Foxconn all short to medium term potential with sort of middle of the road upfront costs? Their upfront costs are probably nominally higher than average, but state of the art manufacturing moves fast, the up front costs are either paid back quickly or a waste. The same forces limit the long term potential; if they don't keep up, the investment quickly withers.

Well, plenty of manufacturing doesn't require state of the art. Start with that level today, and you can still use it a decade from now for products that don't require bleeding edge.

Take chip fab for example: 45nm chips appeared around 2008, and cutting edge today is 5nm. Yet something like an arduino may come in around 200nm, the Pi 4 is still 28nm. So there's a fairly long lifespan for manufacturing facilities. Some will retool for the latest tech sure, but plenty will simply pivot to a different market niche commensurate with their capabilities.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#83

Post by maxerickson »

ineedasername wrote: post #82
maxerickson wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Foxconn all short to medium term potential with sort of middle of the road upfront costs? Their upfront costs are probably nominally higher than average, but state of the art manufacturing moves fast, the up front costs are either paid back quickly or a waste. The same forces limit the long term potential; if they don't keep up, the investment quickly withers.

Well, plenty of manufacturing doesn't require state of the art. Start with that level today, and you can still use it a decade from now for products that don't require bleeding edge. Take chip fab for example: 45nm chips appeared around 2008, and cutting edge today is 5nm. Yet something like an arduino may come in around 200nm, the Pi 4 is still 28nm. So there's a fairly long lifespan for manufacturing facilities. So…

They said they were going to make a chip fab in Kenosha?

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#84

Post by zdragnar »

gruez wrote: post #54
zdragnar wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydro is clean in the sense that clean coal is clean. You need to measure and factor in the methane generated by the decaying biome behind the dam. We also have a lot of electrical cooperatives and other non-mega-corp electrical providers in the US. All in all, it isn't a great analogy.

>You need to measure and factor in the methane generated by the decaying biome behind the dam. how much are we talking about? does it work out to about the same as other fossil fuels, or order(s) of magnitude less? Also, is it possible to mitigate this by burning the vegetation prior to flooding the area?

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/nov/14/h...

About 1.3% of all human caused gas emissions, made worse because it is primarily methane.

As for burning first, that only works for new dams, and you need to de extensive excavation to get at the roots as well- depending on the plant, upwards of half of its mass is below the surface.

Biomass decay isn't the only problem; the article also cites downstream algae blooms, which I suspect would be exacerbated by the occasional dredging necessary to keep dams from being blocked by silt.

A direct comparison to coal is tricky, because a lot depends on the type of coal burned and thr type of plant it burns in. Certainly coal isn't a clean source of energy, but it is clear that hydro isn't either.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#85

Post by Lazare »

gruez wrote: post #51
pg_bot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can blame the worst supreme court decision in the 21st century for that. (Kelo v City of New London) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

worst ? what about citizens united? how often is eminent domain abused for economic development, compared to how much favorable legislation was passed for corporations?

> what about citizens united

Sure, what about a decision that said individuals do not lose their free speech writes when they organise collectively, and that it would be a grossly illegal for government to muzzle groups like the New York Times or the Sierra Club just because they disagree with their speech? A decision that in the instant case was literally about the ability of government to limit the criticism of candidates?

I'm just fine with that decision, frankly.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#86

Post by nendroid »

orange_joe wrote: post #74
nendroid wrote: post #59

Well you can't ignore the reality of the situation. It's one thing for american blue collar workers to get paid more. It's another thing for blue collar american workers to get paid more and be 10x slower and worse at getting things done.

lol, did you even read the article? the situation had absolutely nothing to do with the pay of American workers and everything to do with the fact that Foxconn management went into this situation without a plan, and the situation was exacerbated by their almost feudalistic management structure.

Everyone knows American workers are way worse than chinese blue collar workers. This is a well known fact among factory owners in China.

Foxconn is not stupid, they've done such a thing before when migrating manufacturing to China. If American workers were good they'd take this project seriously too. They aren't, and the screw ups are just a result of certain executives not taking the project seriously and not providing enough resources to lower management.

This project was done for optics. It has an ulterior motive because it's not logical to hire workers in America when you can get better workers in China.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#87

Post by ineedasername »

gruez wrote: post #68
User23 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oxidizing the biocarbon to mitigate CO2 release? I think I see a bit of a flaw in that strategy.

I don't see why not? We flare natural gas at oil wells for this exact reason.

Natural gas burns pretty clean by comparison, and if we're taking methane, it's far better to burn it and produce those relatively low C02 amounts than let the methane into the atmosphere as it holds roughly 80 times more heat than C02.

C02 produced by biomass varies with moisture content, but is generally on the level of coal per unit of energy. Moister wood produces slightly more, dry seasoned wood slightly less than coal.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#88

Post by Lazare »

ecf wrote: post #63
pg_bot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Let’s say it loud and clear for everyone to hear. MONEY. IS. NOT. SPEECH

Money isn't abortion either, but the Supreme Court would toss out a law instantly that claimed not to ban abortion, but to ban spending money to obtain an abortion.

Money is a tool which enables people to exercise a right. Limiting your ability to exercise the right is a limitation on that right. If I have a right to do a thing, then I have the right to spend money on doing that thing.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#89

Post by geofft »

ecf wrote: post #63
pg_bot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Let’s say it loud and clear for everyone to hear. MONEY. IS. NOT. SPEECH

Would it be constitutional to have a law that a pastor can say whatever they want from the pulpit, but the church can spend no more than $500/year on the sound system?

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#90

Post by hashtagmarkup »

jimsparkman wrote: post #5

As an aside, does Wisconsin even make sense from a logistical standpoint for LCDs?

The manufacturing process requires a lot of clean water. Racine built them a pipe directly to Lake Michigan to take all the fresh water they want for free. Dump the wastewater back in the farmland and you've got yourself a nearly free dystopia.
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