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Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

theverge.com

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Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#71

Post by ineedasername »

kenned3 wrote: post #19

This is a great article around why "corporate welfare" rarely works out. Also, semes like a textbook example of "eminent domain" abuse? We call this "expropriation" in Canada and it is rarely abused like this. Taking peoples property to give it to a private corporation? I can understand the need to take property for public use (roads, infra) but the US needs to end eminent domain abuse. If Foxconn needed the property…

Yes, these sorts of "tax incentives" are a negative sum game. As long as they are done, companies will hop around to the best deals, depleting the tax base as they force more and more competition from struggling jurisdictions, forcing local citizens to foot the bill for more and more of the infrastructure and services that make those businesses possible.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#72

Post by maxerickson »

tootie wrote: post #37
kenned3 wrote: post #19

This is a great article around why "corporate welfare" rarely works out. Also, semes like a textbook example of "eminent domain" abuse? We call this "expropriation" in Canada and it is rarely abused like this. Taking peoples property to give it to a private corporation? I can understand the need to take property for public use (roads, infra) but the US needs to end eminent domain abuse. If Foxconn needed the property…

Corporate subsidies work very well in certain conditions. The biggest is in investing in industries have big long-term potential but huge upfront costs. Power generation is a good example. Subsidies also tend to work best with a portfolio like a VC fund. The other option is for a very mature industries with inelastic demand where subsidies go directly to pushing down prices. Like with food and fuel.

Isn't Foxconn all short to medium term potential with sort of middle of the road upfront costs?

Their upfront costs are probably nominally higher than average, but state of the art manufacturing moves fast, the up front costs are either paid back quickly or a waste.

The same forces limit the long term potential; if they don't keep up, the investment quickly withers.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#73

Post by ineedasername »

ecf wrote: post #63
pg_bot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Let’s say it loud and clear for everyone to hear. MONEY. IS. NOT. SPEECH

I know, and I don't like the decision, but there is a correlation with money none the less. Exercising speech takes resources. I cannot speak to the audience of newspaper readers without either investing capital to create a newspaper or by paying for ad placement in an existing one. Money is not, in itself, speech, but in our society it is integral to exercising that right at any scale much beyond a few individuals.

I think the main problem with the decision was the assertion that entities like corporations, rather than simply individuals, have free speech.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#74

Post by orange_joe »

nendroid wrote: post #59

Well you can't ignore the reality of the situation. It's one thing for american blue collar workers to get paid more. It's another thing for blue collar american workers to get paid more and be 10x slower and worse at getting things done.

lol, did you even read the article? the situation had absolutely nothing to do with the pay of American workers and everything to do with the fact that Foxconn management went into this situation without a plan, and the situation was exacerbated by their almost feudalistic management structure.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#75

Post by tootie »

maxerickson wrote: post #72
tootie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate subsidies work very well in certain conditions. The biggest is in investing in industries have big long-term potential but huge upfront costs. Power generation is a good example. Subsidies also tend to work best with a portfolio like a VC fund. The other option is for a very mature industries with inelastic demand where subsidies go directly to pushing down prices. Like with food and fuel.

Isn't Foxconn all short to medium term potential with sort of middle of the road upfront costs? Their upfront costs are probably nominally higher than average, but state of the art manufacturing moves fast, the up front costs are either paid back quickly or a waste. The same forces limit the long term potential; if they don't keep up, the investment quickly withers.

Yes. This investment made no sense. The state would have gotten a better deal by just hiring people directly.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#76

Post by wslack »

pg_bot wrote: post #56
gruez wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worst ? what about citizens united? how often is eminent domain abused for economic development, compared to how much favorable legislation was passed for corporations?

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Giving money is different than speaking. Do we have a right to anonymous speech amplified according to our means?

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#78

Post by staticautomatic »

pg_bot wrote: post #56
gruez wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worst ? what about citizens united? how often is eminent domain abused for economic development, compared to how much favorable legislation was passed for corporations?

I knew someone would bring up Citizens United v FEC when I said worst. I know this will be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I believe that case was decided correctly. I agree wholeheartedly with Justice Kennedy's opinion that "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech" Read the opinions and d…

Corporations don’t have speech interests.

The majority’s opinion in Citizens United is premised upon the assertion that they do.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#79

Post by fortran77 »

The fact that local governments in every state make deals with companies for reduced property-tax rates is why I'm terrified about Prop 15 killing California.

The big businesses, Facebook, Google, Apple, will all negotiate special property tax rates and only the small businesses will have to pay the double or triple tax prop 15 would bring.

Re: Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty promises in Wisconsin

#80

Post by redis_mlc »

Just for those who don't understand the business side of this.

Chinese mfgs. don't and won't make anything in the USA except in remarkable circumstances. There's many reasons, but supply chain, labor force, eco, and costs are the main ones.

What's funny is when a Chinese businesperson is doing an interview in the US, and they're asked, "how many jobs are you creating in the US?" Cue the stammering, since they were expecting a puff piece about non-business questions.

They do launder money using US and Canadian real estate for a "rainy day" - like when the CCP decides to arrest them and their family members. That's what all those empty, dark condos in Vancouver are for.

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