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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

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351–360 of 363 posts

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know the Nazi option turned out very very bad. But it's possible a German/Soviet Stalinist block would have been even worse. Say what you want about Soviet-caused famine, but they never shipped people in trains to gas chambers for the express purpose of exterminating them. Pretty contrived and callous to say that choosing the Nazis might have been the right choice.

Stalin did plenty of genocides of his own, and murdered far more of his own citizens than Hitler did. If your criteria is that the genocide has to be conducted with a similar train system etc as the Holocaust, you're probably not serious about this discussion.

> Stalin did plenty of genocides of his own, and murdered far more of his own citizens than Hitler did.

Hm, yes - I would like to see the evidence that Stalin directly, intentionally murdered more than 11 million of his citizens.

You're really going out of your way to justify voting for the Nazis, huh.

If you're just going to go ahead and conflate the Holodomor and Holocaust as basically the same thing, then it's not really worth continuing the conversation.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Whether you agree with it or not, how would a mask mandate not be an authoritarian restriction?

You're confusing a mild inconvenience for oppressing your freedoms.

You're confusing the ease of compliance with the nature of the order itself.

As an example, banning certain words could be considered a "mild inconvenience", but it's clearly a violation of the first amendment.

Border patrol and other police checkpoints, are a "mild inconvenience". They may very well help catch more criminals, but police need to have probable cause and can't just go on fishing expeditions.

As far as a _federal_ mask mandate, it's clearly not within the enumerated powers. I think you could potentially make an argument for state/local mask mandates when it comes to _public_ areas, given that all powers not granted to the federal goverment are reserved for the states and the people. I would still probably consider that authoritarian in nature.

That's just for masks as well. As far as locking down or limiting size of gatherings, while it may be a very good idea to do something like that during a pandemic, Imo it wouldn't be constitutional, as the freedom of assembly is explicitly protected in the first amendment.

Freedom can be dangerous, but I prefer it to the alternative.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe slow down a bit before claiming that someone does not have a clue. The Venezuelan bolivar is not really pegged to any currency otherwise its hyperinflation would not have been possible. That is also the reason why nobody would buy bonds in the Venezuelan bolivar. Of course the UK is in a different situation than Venezuela, being a country with an advanced economy. Still the rating will have an effect as a lot o…

I don't need to slow down. You've nicely proved it. "The Venezuelan bolivar is not really pegged to any currency" It is. There is an official VEF to USD exchange rate. Which means if you get some VEF on the black market you can upgrade it to USD and make a profit. That's the problem. "So the interest rates will rise." There is no mechanism by which interest rates can rise unless the government sector permits it. Look…

"There is an official VEF to USD exchange rate"

* Semi-official. They are intervening directly now.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of a few reasons: - 75% of Americans (incl. a majority of republicans) support mask mandates. (The US isn’t a direct democracy, but mask mandates have the green light from the general public). [ https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-understanding-the-out... ] - One of the main functions of any government is to mitigate the harm that people do to one another. This is the main thing that distinguishes it f…

- Authoritarianism can be supported by majority, and that first point is essentially argumentum ad populum. The US isn't a direct democracy for good reason, as that is essentially mob/majority rule, and erodes the rights of individuals. - If we're referring to the US, it really doesn't matter what the functions of other governments may be. The founding fathers clearly defined the responsibilities of the federal gover…

You’re right that majority rule is not sufficient by itself, but public opinion should be given at least some weight in a representative democracy.

The US Constitution grants states the right to enact laws that protect the general welfare, and of course gives courts the authority to interpret the law. More specifically regarding public health, the 1905 Supreme Court case Jacobson vs. Massachusetts upheld the power of states to enforce mandatory vaccination laws (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts):

> ”real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others”

In general, John Stuart Mill’s harm principle is “far and away the best known proposal for a principled limit to the law” (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/law-limits/#cand), and it is a core tenet of liberalism. The famous bit is:

> ”That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.”

This principle is echoed in the party platform of the US Libertarian Party:

> ”Criminal laws should be limited in their application to violations of the rights of others through force or fraud, or to deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm.”

So if masks only protected the wearer, then a case could be made that mask laws are in violation of this principle. But because masks help limit the spread of a (frequently asymptomatic) disease from myself to others, it’s reasonable that states can require me to wear one in situations where it protects others.

As for the enforcement question, I’d draw a comparison to speed limits. These laws tend to be loosely enforced, yet they guide the general expectations/behavior of drivers. In practice, enforcement is reserved for repeat and extreme offenders. Partial enforcement can induce optimal behavior in an economic/game theoretic sense (if probability of being caught * cost of being caught - cost of following the law > 0, then compliance is optimal). Since the “cost” of wearing a mask is negligible (everyone has one already since you can use any face covering, and the only cost is minor inconvenience or embarrassment), enforcement does not have to be very consistent to induce compliance. That said, uneven enforcement of laws is clearly a major problem in our society (that disproportionately affects minorities).

For mask laws, I also think it gives air cover to both business and individuals. You’ll notice businesses pointing to mask ordinances (“welp, thems the rules” etc.) on their signage and such. Then, enough people comply such that it becomes socially enforced—people generally don’t like to be the odd one out. But in practice, I think you can go virtually anywhere in America right now without a mask and the worst thing that is likely to happen is that someone will politely ask you to wear one and come back.

So if you are not anti-mask but are concerned about genuinely authoritarian action, there are current examples to denounced (e.g. stoking political violence against opposing politicians [see Gov. Whitmer], undermining election integrity, state-sponsored misinformation).

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a prohibition of setting your neighbours house on fire an authoritarian restriction? How about a mandate to clear the pavement/sidewalk in front of your house of snow so that pedestrians don't fall and break their hip? Having laws doesn't mean you're being oppressed.

No, you don't have the freedom to destroy someone else's property. I get the point of view that "you don't have the freedom to infect others", but where do you logically draw the line with something like that? Why weren't we already required to wear biohazard suits in public? Humans have been spreading disease as long as we've been around. Your reasoning is so blunt, saying that just become some laws are justified, a…

I'm only being blunt because I was responding to a blunt assertion.

The fact of the matter is that the temporary restrictions for the purpose of public health are mild inconveniences. Those measure are, by and large, reasonable and proportionate. It's the pushback that isn't.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, let’s talk about the science supporting mask wearing. Read these and come back with a good faith argument: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768532 https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v3 [Edit: removed “#ref-CR4” from end of first link]

I get you're responding to the other guy there saying we should look at science instead of popularity, but both are invalid if we're talking about responsibility of goverment. There's plenty of scientific evidence that sugar, alcohol, and tobacco are all horrible for you. Scientifically, it might make sense to ban those things health wise, but that's not the role of government, and would be authoritarian rules that l…

See my reply above. Here’s an expanded quote of the harm principle by JSM (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle):

> “He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute.

In accordance with this principle, I believe in the sacred right for an individual to smoke/chew/snort/whatever tobacco and chug high fructose corn syrup to their heart’s content (or more accurately, until their heart fails). But you don’t have the right to expose others to second-hand tobacco smoke (a new development in my lifetime!), since abundant scientific evidence says that this harms others. You can drink yourself into a coma, but you can’t get blitzed and operate a vehicle even if you insist that you’re safe driving under the influence.

This has been a fundamental organizing principle of society since at least the Code of Hammurabi.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe slow down a bit before claiming that someone does not have a clue. The Venezuelan bolivar is not really pegged to any currency otherwise its hyperinflation would not have been possible. That is also the reason why nobody would buy bonds in the Venezuelan bolivar. Of course the UK is in a different situation than Venezuela, being a country with an advanced economy. Still the rating will have an effect as a lot o…

I don't need to slow down. You've nicely proved it. "The Venezuelan bolivar is not really pegged to any currency" It is. There is an official VEF to USD exchange rate. Which means if you get some VEF on the black market you can upgrade it to USD and make a profit. That's the problem. "So the interest rates will rise." There is no mechanism by which interest rates can rise unless the government sector permits it. Look…

Government bonds are still bound to the market setting rates. Why else would e.g. Germany have lower yield than the UK? And Germany doesn’t even have its own currency.

http://www.worldgovernmentbonds.com/country/united-kingdom/ http://www.worldgovernmentbonds.com/country/germany/

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need to slow down. You've nicely proved it. "The Venezuelan bolivar is not really pegged to any currency" It is. There is an official VEF to USD exchange rate. Which means if you get some VEF on the black market you can upgrade it to USD and make a profit. That's the problem. "So the interest rates will rise." There is no mechanism by which interest rates can rise unless the government sector permits it. Look…

Government bonds are still bound to the market setting rates. Why else would e.g. Germany have lower yield than the UK? And Germany doesn’t even have its own currency. http://www.worldgovernmentbonds.com/country/united-kingdom/ http://www.worldgovernmentbonds.com/country/germany/

No bonds are bound by market rates that the central bank doesn’t allow.

For rates to go up prices must come down, and the central bank can QE at any price to stop that happening whenever it feels like it.

Carry on betting against Japan though if you believe otherwise. The widow maker trade has taken many over the years.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). It’s hard to find persistent daylight between those two things. (For the record, I wear masks outside and in grocery stores, which are the only shops I go to. I find this at least 75% common sense.) When it comes time though to force some…

When the vast majority of people agree that we should do something reasonable for the common good and you disagree loudly while flailing your arms about, then it doesn't make you a defender of liberty, it makes you an obnoxious moron.

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar. What a wretched subthread this spawned.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#360
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think EU is testing less then USA?

I don’t think right now. But earlier in the year. I explained in my comment the EU has fewer confirmed cases but more deaths. This implies that either EU citizens are more likely to die from COVID or that they didn’t test as much earlier. Today their confirmed numbers are massive and I suspect it’s because they are testing more than ever.

> EU citizens are more likely to die from COVID or that they didn’t test as much earlier

Both are true -> EU citizens are much older.

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