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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#181

Post by shigawire »

christophilus wrote: post #129
nemo44x wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t really understood the certain praise the EU has received by the USA media. The EU as a whole is similar to the USA and has done just as good/bad as the USA. Similar number of deaths. The USA has more cases but I suspect the EU has just not tested as much previously. There’s no reason to suspect the EU would have a higher death rate (USA has more confirmed cases but fewer deaths$. But today EU case totals ar…

This utopian view of the EU predates COVID. I’m not sure where it comes from.

To a thirsty man in the desert, a muddy puddle is an oasis.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#182

Post by starfallg »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #176
starfallg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

Regarding masks in the UK, the evidence for their effectiveness is still up in the air. I think the UK gov didn't want to confuse the messages that were already numerous. I think they gave up on that idea when all the other countries went with the masks.

It's "up in the air" in the same way that climate change is "up in the air".

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-f...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-abou...

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-0948_article

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#183

Post by fennecfoxen »

starfallg wrote: post #141
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

> we have no choice but to shut things

We have always had a spectrum of choices, and as time goes by we continue to develop new choices that will deliver better results at lower costs.

Broad shutdowns have always been the bluntest possible instrument with the highest amount of collateral damage. This is why even the WHO is inveighing against shutdowns now, noting the increases in cancers left untreated, vaccines not administered, the long-term damage from service cuts when government budgets must pay the deficit, and a massive spike in worldwide poverty. It is cataclysmic, and the worst impacts are in the global south, particularly around education; previous coverage in the Economist has noted that in some places girls are being pulled out of school entirely, and married off at a young age.

At some point, the cure is worse than the disease. We must acknowledge this, proactively declare that there is a choice, and countenance trade-offs which let allow the virus to kill more people — because if we don't, we're certainly going to ruin lives and kill people in other ways. And while it's one thing to make a "Hail Mary" pass attempt and set new world records in vaccine development, the fact remains that if we do not see our miracle then the virus remains likely to kill plenty of the people we "save" in the end anyway.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#184

Post by krona »

noncoml wrote: post #138
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

Enforcing restrictions for closed spaces or making people wear a mask is not corrosion of democracy. If you think that making you wear a mask attacks your freedom you are a moron. Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons. So I think you comparison to Sweden in a bit unfortunate. Also the virus was not the reason for the corrosion of the democracy where it happened, it…

> Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons.

Interesting. You see, in the UK there is a large difference between the government guidance on mask wearing (taken to be rules by many), and what the law says. And yet, the police routinely arrest people not for breaking the law, but for ignoring what is in essence the preferences of a few ministers in government. This is the very definition of a police state: enforcing 'rules' without legal authority.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#185

Post by sokoloff »

starfallg wrote: post #141
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

> People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks).

It’s hard to find persistent daylight between those two things. (For the record, I wear masks outside and in grocery stores, which are the only shops I go to. I find this at least 75% common sense.)

When it comes time though to force someone who doesn’t want to do what you find common sense, where’s the impersonal, referenced only to ground truth, line that says that’s ok under force of law, but other similar-appearing things, well those things would be authoritarian, but these things are just common sense we can all rally around? If everyone is already rallying around something, you don’t need any government force of law to make it happen. (Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection.)

Apply this to guns, drugs, abortion, climate change, restaurant seating capacity during COVID, or whatever topic people tend to have their own individual “common sense” about.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#186

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

starfallg wrote: post #141
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

The idea that there's some set of coordinated post-lockdown measures that will prevent the need for further lockdowns strikes me as unrealistic. Every country I'm familiar with that attempted to control the pandemic with lockdowns has had to reimpose them at least once.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#187

Post by thebeefytaco »

starfallg wrote: post #141
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

>People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks).

Whether you agree with it or not, how would a mask mandate not be an authoritarian restriction?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#188

Post by Dumblydorr »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #9

In a place like Uganda, an empowered strongman is a greater threat than the pandemic itself. In fact, worldwide, actual loss of life seems like one of the least of the threats emerging from the pandemic.

The specter of healthcare collapse has led to strict lockdowns and economic pain in many countries. If we hadn't taken many of the actions we did in the Spring, we would've seen far more deaths and calls for stronger government responses. Deaths are an important metric, but not the only one, and it's probable we could've been 2-3X higher in deaths with much more "freedom" in our daily lives.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#189

Post by tolbish »

celdon25 wrote: post #171
starfallg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

> People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead -- We're already doing this. > because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. Until when? The shutdowns were supposed to be about making sure that hospitals have time to prepare, research has time to be done, society has time to adapt. This has a…

Your response underscores the importance of civic institutions that the population can trust. When government institutions cannot be trusted, conspiratorial mindsets become the norm.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#190

Post by notreallytrue »

pelasaco wrote: post #96
notreallytrue wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt…

you are creating a rhetoric that doesn't exist. There are 0 risk to be critics to south american regimes online. Maybe Venezuela? To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period, you are not making the Brazilian Government look bad, but you are making the Nazi Period look harmless. From my personal life (my family moved from what today is Poland to Brazil, around 40s). Today 80 years after, I feel safe to we…

> To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period

Never did.

I compared the military coups, which Bolsonaro is rooting for, undeniably, to the military government the nazi-fascists had over Germany and Italy and then Europe.

They came to power thanks to the military support.

As every far right movement usually does.

Bolsonaro is praising and rallying for a return of the military dictatorship.

He was there, in person, endorsing it.

> my family moved from what today is Poland to Brazil, around 40s

So did thousands of former SS officials who went to live there after WW2, protected and kept hidden.

Including Joseph Mengele.

> I feel safe to wear my Kippah in Sao Paulo, but I don't feel safe to do it in Paris or Berlin (city where I studied and lived)

Are you sure?

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-as-coronavirus-r...

As much as I respect feelings, they are just feelings.

Sao Pauol has a much higher crime rate and 10 to 15 times worse homicide rate than Berlin, you might feel safer, but you are not safer.

“I hope God continues to enlighten President Jair Bolsonaro because he has a Jew who is at the head of the Senate at his disadvantage, Jews are miserly. Jews are wicked and think only of their well-being.”

Said Bolsonaro's supporters when the first Jewish president of Brazilian Congress was nominated.

Have you seen supporters of Merkel or Macron write something like that?

Uncondemned?

Remember that Bolsonaro in Brazil controls the media, but he cannot hide that under his government

> And if two key elements had been missing – anti-Semitism and the use of the state apparatus, especially the police, to stifle the press and persecute political dissenters – and thus prevented us from characterizing Bolsonaro and his gang as fascists once and for all, that is no longer the case.

> 1. On its official website and its verified Twitter profile, the Brazilian Army recently honored and treated as a "martyr" Eduard Ernest Thilo Otto Maximilian von Westernhagen, a Nazi major who was decorated by Hitler and killed in Brazil by members of the Colina, a resistance group against the military dictatorship and its state terrorism.

> Bolsonaro’s Justice Minister Sérgio Moro – after being unmasked in the conspiracy against former President Lula and Brazilian democracy as a judge of Operation Lava Jato, which was denounced by The Intercept – decided to use the Federal Police to try to intimidate the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Glenn Greenwald, editor of the prestigious news site, and to persecute me over a conspiracy theory.

Moro is the same man that presented testimony for interference with justice by Bolsonaro that the president from his social account called "a traitor, a Juda"

Moro was chosen by Bolsonaro himself, exactly because he handled the operation "car wash" that illegally put Lula out of the competition.

If a man who obstructed justice to stop a former President to run for re-election is saying that the current President is interfering with justice, it is probably worse than we think.

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