Live data from Hacker News

The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

nytimes.com

151–160 of 421 posts

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#151
post #25

> Facts and transparency are the intended pillars of the modern First Amendment I don’t think we can ascribe intentions that easily. Speech is also the way people process their emotions, clarify their thoughts, get into dialogue with other people and form a dialectic to discover the truth . If people can’t fight their with words, they will fight with their swords, because they will lose hope of integrating their worl…

> Instead I propose this solution; marketplace of ideas now has to incorporate the marketplace for AIs that curate those ideas to be complete.

I don't know about this. Interesting proposal. I don't normally take a cynical view, but humans are emotional creatures, otherwise these dishonest mechanisms of generating engagement wouldn't work. In such a system it is likely that the most emotionally motivating algorithms would win.

Beyond that, why does one company need to make multiple algorithms? Why do we need a law to enforce this? Why don't we just have any company able to make any product they like and let people decide?

We have that now of course. And the problem I laid out with this is plainly obvious on the internet today. People are picking the algorithm that generates in them the most emotional reaction. But I suggest that these algorithms fail in the marketplace by a different mechanism: they inevitably lead to the state we are in now, where people become disillusioned with the control of information flow (and other problems associated with the curation algorithms), and people move to other websites with other algorithms.

In the past couple of years we have seen an explosion of alternatives, some echo chambers, some failed but genuine attempts, some sizeable competitors, some in the pipe. There is a large and fast growing diaspora from the big websites. Essentially what I'm saying is, what you want is happening now without any intervention, and everything is as it should be.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#152
That's ironic coming from the nyt, with their heavily biased front page. Even people who agree 100% with the nyt's point of view should be offended by it. I'm more interested in facts than confirmation bias of what I believe. I don't consider them a reliable source of news.

Note that an article can be disinformation even if all the information in the article is correct - by simply cherry-picking which facts to present. An example from several years ago: "Half of All Corporations Paid No Income Tax" which was factually correct. Another fact omitted from the many articles on this was "half of all corporations lost money". Income tax is not owed when losing money.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#153
Prescient reminder of someone being murdered because of their application of free speech from today: https://www.ft.com/content/51fdc6f1-15ef-4dfb-949c-1b1d18601...

https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2020/10/17/attentat-d...

> "In the name of Allah, the most merciful, the most merciful, (...) to Macron, the leader of the infidels, I ' executed one of your hellhounds who dared to belittle Muhammad, calm his fellow human beings before a harsh punishment is inflicted on you.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#154

Society is misdiagnosing the issue here. It's not unchecked free speech. Instead, it's unchecked curation by media and social media companies with the goal of engagement. As long as media companies get the most benefit from people engaging with content, they will continue to promote information that is damaging to society. It may even be true information but when the goal is engagement, it's purpose will be to enrage…

> Companies that make their money selling ads

Which includes...the New York Times. And all other media companies.

> This business model should be illegal. It's already trivially unethical.

By this criterion, pretty much all newspapers that have ever existed should be illegal. Also pretty much all TV channels. If this is a problem, it's been a problem since long before Facebook and Twitter.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#155

I come from a country where a free speech was never really a thing, and I tell you, americans, this: you don't value it enough. Restrictions on free speech inevitably lead to some form of censorship, and any form of censorship inevitably leads to the population being subjected to some 'official' version of 'truth'. This 'truth', however, is carefully curated to coerce the population to act in a certain way. So when T…

I came into the article expecting to hate it, but the author eventually kind of won me over. She doesn't think Americans should abandon free speech, but she does think we should approach it more like Germany and France. > Germany and France have laws that are designed to prevent the widespread dissemination of hate speech and election-related disinformation. “Much of the recent authoritarian experience in Europe aros…

We promise, we're only going to ban """"hate speech""""!

Oh wait, who decides what "hate speech" is?

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#156
post #117
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except truth by definition is objective Except metaphysics of truth has been discussed for centuries and things are more complicated than that. Truth on matters most interesting to us is mostly transjective (neither objective nor subjective but depends on the interaction between the agent and the arena), because which truth you pursue is as important as what the thing is in itself, and the information we could seek…

> “Earth is spherically shaped” is not an “objective truth” if you are calculating the response time of your radio transmission of your satellite over a ground station up north, you need to get more precise than a “sphere”. https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.ht... > The young specialist in English Lit, having quoted me, went on to lecture me severely on the fact that in every century people hav…

> "Truth is hard, let's go Postmodern!" isn't a valid conclusion. It's an escape hatch, a refusal to make a best effort and, when it's about something that matters, a horribly dangerous practice which essentially cedes the field to the idiots who have no such scruples.

Postmodernism is not the only critique of Kant. Although you're fighting a strawman, I agree with your criticism of postmodernism as used today, but that is not what I was talking about.

I am arguing indeed for making the best effort and especially about something that really matters. And it turns out "this is the objective truth" is one of the other escape hatches, especially since most of the questions that really matter are far more complex than the shape of our planet. Ethics, meaning, policy etc. they all require an ongoing process of being less wrong, which best works in opponent processing. There is rarely a terminal value for truth for these questions, there is always going to be an ongoing tension because the part of the reality we are trying to capture is inexhaustably complex. People who wrote the religious texts thought they were able to capture and codify the algorithm for "the right way", but we now see how inadequate they can be for our 21st century context. Anytime someone thought they had the key algorithm for utopia, they turned out to be the most evil machineries of our history sooner or later.

> But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

I think that guy is the most wrong. Because "what are we going to use this information for, what adjacent information that we haven't yet might be interesting, are we framing the question right" is the most critical parts of the query that goes unasked. If we are talking about walking on the street, the flat earth guy is just as correct as the sphere guy. Notice I am not saying his epistemology is correct, nor he is entitled to his own opinion and we should be pluralistic. I am saying as long as both guys only walk on the street, the difference opinions are completely inconsequential.

Now expand this to a question no one has a clear answer for. E.g. economic policy; some want it sphere, some want it flat. No doubt newspapers will be filled with people "it is flat, this is the objective truth". That is the use of going "hang on a second, we don't do objective truth here, we humbly pursue being less wrong, now dialogue with us, don't rhetorize your talking points, just honestly talk to us". Sadly, nowadays mass of the public discourse happens over channels that doesn't reward that but rhetoric and likes.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#157
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also includes things which are technically true but lack context, or aren't relevant to the policies or decisions we want. "George Floyd was a drug using criminal" is true, and therefore becomes a talking point in conservative circles to justify the police brutality he suffered, even though it's irrelevant to why others are upset at his treatment. I think it's a more useful framework because half truths are way mo…

I don’t agree with your perspective about relevance. Details are an important part of journalism. You might not find some detail salient along some particular line of argument, but I still want to know.

I think you're making an interesting point that warrants a little further exploration: "disinformation" is nothing more than you using information available to you to determine what you think is true that the people who disagree with you would not like you to consider in your assessment. What the whole "control disinformation" argument boils down to, in my opinion, is an attempt to stifle people's own faculty of reason and deliberation by restricting their access to information. Who is to decide what information is relevant to you? Why is it that some people want to do that because you did not come to the conclusion they think you ought to?

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#158

Society is misdiagnosing the issue here. It's not unchecked free speech. Instead, it's unchecked curation by media and social media companies with the goal of engagement. As long as media companies get the most benefit from people engaging with content, they will continue to promote information that is damaging to society. It may even be true information but when the goal is engagement, it's purpose will be to enrage…

> The core issue is the underlying system that values engagement over all things ... the advertising system. I don't think you're digging deep enough here. It's not the business model. It's the technology. We've invented technology that can, to a significant degree, control people. It is as addictive as hard drugs and people will just keep coming back to their dealer for more and more digital crack. But it's worse th…

> I don't think you're digging deep enough here. It's not the business model. It's the technology.

I don't think you're digging deep enough here. It's not the technology. It's the people. Meaning not just the people running companies, but all of us.

Technology is a tool. Any tool can be used for nefarious purposes, or for beneficial purposes. Which kind it gets used for depends on the people who use it, and on the people who are creating the environment in which the people using the tools operate.

I don't dispute that most of the people who are running large companies (not even limited to social media companies) are amoral and will do anything to make more money, including manipulating other people's thoughts and opinions. But such people can only thrive in an environment where there are lots of other people who are susceptible to their manipulation. There will always be nefarious people in the world. But there is no rule that says there have to be enough other people who are susceptible to them to enable them to thrive.

I don't disagree that people who make money through lies and manipulation should be punished. But I think we all need to take a step back and ask why such people are able to thrive in our society to this extent. At some point the rest of society needs to take some responsibility for not being susceptible to liars and crooks.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#159

I come from a country where a free speech was never really a thing, and I tell you, americans, this: you don't value it enough. Restrictions on free speech inevitably lead to some form of censorship, and any form of censorship inevitably leads to the population being subjected to some 'official' version of 'truth'. This 'truth', however, is carefully curated to coerce the population to act in a certain way. So when T…

Coming from a country where free speech "was never really a thing" implies that your government either stops you from conveying X, retaliates, or is unwilling to protect you from another entity doing the same.

I find it strange that anyone in that situation would equate it with social media sites removing or flagging content published on their platform.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came into the article expecting to hate it, but the author eventually kind of won me over. She doesn't think Americans should abandon free speech, but she does think we should approach it more like Germany and France. > Germany and France have laws that are designed to prevent the widespread dissemination of hate speech and election-related disinformation. “Much of the recent authoritarian experience in Europe aros…

I support so called hate speech. This narrative is abused to censor and support extreme views which are just as damaging as their so called mission to quell so called extremists.

I agree with regard to hate speech (although "support" is too strong a term). What the Westboro Baptist Church does is abhorrent, but I'm in favor of their right to say those things (although I don't think private companies need to give them a platform).

But this article is primarily focused on "misinformation", and I think that's more complicated. It's one thing to legitimately believe something abhorrent, and to express that abhorrent view in "good faith." Knowingly spreading something you know to be false, however, is another matter—not entirely unlike engaging in fraud, or shouting fire in a crowded theater.

Post reply on HN