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Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

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Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#91

Post by kwhitefoot »

mmm_grayons wrote: post #79
croes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact, if you read the last sentence as a german sentence it sounds like english with a german accent.

I was always under the impression that this was the intent and was trying to imply that English was basically bastardized German. Is that not what Twain meant?

No, Twain was satirising the whole ridiculous idea that trying to regularise the spelling of English is a good idea.

English has homonyms and homophones in part because it is always open to taking words from other languages. In fact "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

Any attempt to force English to be strictly 'pronounced as written' will fail in the future even if it succeeds in the present because someone will import a word from another language that sounds like an existing word or invent a new one unaware that a word of the same pronunciation already exists or just attach a new meaning to an existing word.

See https://wiki.c2.com/?PurityOfEnglish and https://library.conlang.org/blog/?p=116

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#92

Post by namaemuta »

elboru wrote: post #38
nabla9 wrote: post #9

When I tried it just for a few days, I was surprised how easy it was to learn. It was much easier to learn than English. On the other hand so many people already know English vocabulary that just having regular spelling and simple grammar could work. Mark Twain already suggested it: "A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling: For example, in Year 1 that useless letter 'c' would be dropped to be replased either b…

Agree, I would add, make vocals consistent, ‘a’,‘e’,‘i’,’o’,’u’ should only have one sound per each letter for every case, if we need more vocal sounds then use different characters.

That happens with Spanish. Most of the time is WYSIWYS (What you see is what you say).

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#93

Post by kwhitefoot »

def_true_false wrote: post #54
variaga wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Esperanto (and all the other intentionally designed languages) are simple and logical only because nobody actually speaks them as a native language. They're consistent because everyone learned them from the same miniscule corpus of available books and the occasional film. If any of the intentionally designed languages were to actually come into common use, it would immediately be subject to the same kind of regional…

Updating the ortography once in a while would take care of most of the problems. There are real languages that have successfully made "updates" to reflect the shifts in pronunciation, or the usage of additional sounds (compared to Latin), unlike English.

> "updates" to reflect the shifts in pronunciation,

Which pronunciation will you choose? If you are a prescriptive linguist from Newcastle you will presumably expect everyone to use a short a in 'castle' but someone from the south would use a long a. And which language do you have in mind when you imply that there are languages that are pronounced in the same way by all of its speakers?

Anyway, there is no Academy in charge of English so if you want to get started on spelling reform just go to it. Promote your revised spelling amongst your friends and colleagues. Or should that be: 'Promoat yor rivized speling amongst yor frends and koleegs.'?

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#94

Post by phlakaton »

nabla9 wrote: post #9

When I tried it just for a few days, I was surprised how easy it was to learn. It was much easier to learn than English. On the other hand so many people already know English vocabulary that just having regular spelling and simple grammar could work. Mark Twain already suggested it: "A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling: For example, in Year 1 that useless letter 'c' would be dropped to be replased either b…

Shavian sends its regards:

𐑓𐑲𐑯𐑩𐑤𐑦, 𐑢𐑧𐑯, 𐑨𐑓𐑑𐑼 𐑕𐑳𐑥 20 𐑘𐑱𐑮𐑟 𐑝 𐑹𐑔𐑩𐑜𐑮𐑨𐑓𐑦𐑒 𐑤𐑦𐑓𐑹𐑥, 𐑢𐑰 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑩 𐑤𐑪𐑡𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤, 𐑒𐑴𐑣𐑽𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑕𐑐𐑧𐑤𐑦𐑙 𐑦𐑯 𐑿𐑕 𐑔𐑮𐑵𐑬𐑑 𐑞 𐑦𐑙𐑤𐑦𐑖-𐑕𐑐𐑰𐑒𐑦𐑙 𐑢𐑻𐑤𐑛.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#95

Post by kwhitefoot »

simion314 wrote: post #87
olah_1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you consider that words are essentially the same thing as sinograms (chinese characters), the spelling is not a big deal. English spelling needs to remain the same because they are primarily visual. Native level English users just scan the general shapes of words and know the meanings in the same way that Chinese users just scan the general gists of the characters. The nice result is that you can have 10 wildly…

You use the official accent .

There isn't one. English is not imposed by an authority, it is pulled and pushed from all directions by schools, corporations, governments, history, fashion, misunderstanding, other languages, bloody mindedness, and more.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#96

Post by jodrellblank »

bigbubba wrote: post #43
anewguy9000 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

english is the language of the oppressor

I understand that point of view, but desiring the creation of a universal language makes one an aspirational conqueror. The whole premise of 'a universal language for world peace' is oppressive (and for that reason I don't support it no matter the language chosen.)

My reading of Esperanto wasn’t to make everyone have to speak it as their first and only language (though I’m sure some have suggested that), but to make it a simpler more convenient halfway house language that would put everyone at the same disadvantage, if you will. you show willingness to be friendly and negotiate by stepping away from your native language and learning another, but you don’t have to step into another’s native language and accept being at a huge disadvantage, and you don’t have to learn the union of every language of everyone you want to talk with.

It’s an idea that can only really succeed from a combined goodwill not conquering oppression.

All over Europe there isn’t room to put up road signs and menus and instructions in the union of all possible languages visitors could speak. It’s easy to say all visitors must learn the local language, but there’s often some concession to putting up signs in some other languages, Esperanto fits there. All road signs seconded in Esperanto isn’t as good for locals as all visitors learning the local language, it isn’t as good for visitors as signs being in their native language, but it isn’t as bad for locals as one group of visitors expecting signs in their language and it isn’t as bad for visitors as signs being in multiple native languages but not theirs.

Expecting to go anywhere and speak English is rude. Expecting everyone to learn English is unlikely and going to trigger a lot of anger. Also supporting French shows some openness but privileges France in a national way. If you could get language away from nationalism, tourist information in Esperanto doesn’t privilege any one nation.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#97

Post by garmaine »

7thaccount wrote: post #84
nabla9 wrote: post #9

When I tried it just for a few days, I was surprised how easy it was to learn. It was much easier to learn than English. On the other hand so many people already know English vocabulary that just having regular spelling and simple grammar could work. Mark Twain already suggested it: "A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling: For example, in Year 1 that useless letter 'c' would be dropped to be replased either b…

Yeah, I've always wanted to learn a language, but was frustrated by all the grammar irregularities and other barriers to entry. English has that in spades, but it wasn't a problem as you don't have to worry about that with your first language. Esperanto was the first language I've made any real progress with. Spanish is considered a fairly easy language for English speakers to learn, but I knew fairly little after 3…

Pretty much every other language has regular spelling, and many have very regular grammar. English is the exception, being a Frankenstein assemblage of languages.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#98

Post by Tainnor »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #91
mmm_grayons wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was always under the impression that this was the intent and was trying to imply that English was basically bastardized German. Is that not what Twain meant?

No, Twain was satirising the whole ridiculous idea that trying to regularise the spelling of English is a good idea. English has homonyms and homophones in part because it is always open to taking words from other languages. In fact "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." Any attempt to force Eng…

That argument makes no sense. English is far from alone in borrowing heavily from other languages. Loanwords are one of the most obvious cases of linguistic contact and can be found everywhere throughout the world. There are multiple ways how a language can deal with such loanwords: they can keep the original spelling, making those words an irregular exception to the pronunciation rules, or they can adapt the spelling and pronunciation to the borrowing language, or anything in between. Often it starts as the former and at some point migrates towards the latter.

Meanwhile, there is absolutely no reason why English couldn't in principle have a much more phonetic or regular spelling system, except maybe dialectal variation (which you also do have in other languages with more regularised spelling, though).

Now the larger reason for why a huge spelling reform would fail is because it would be a massive continuity break: people would have to relearn, new spellings would appear totally unnatural, it would mean that past text would at some point start being incomprehensible, etc., so I don't think there is any practical way of getting there.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#99

Post by bialpio »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #91
mmm_grayons wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was always under the impression that this was the intent and was trying to imply that English was basically bastardized German. Is that not what Twain meant?

No, Twain was satirising the whole ridiculous idea that trying to regularise the spelling of English is a good idea. English has homonyms and homophones in part because it is always open to taking words from other languages. In fact "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." Any attempt to force Eng…

As a non-native English speaker, the bigger problem to me are not homophones, but homographs that aren't homophones. Or in general, same groupings of letters that are pronounced differently. That aside, there's a bunch of words that have been imported from English to Polish that mess me up (I'm getting tripped by the Polish pronunciation, it bleeds into how I speak the word). Grammar is actually great to learn (same goes for Spanish based on my limited experience with it).

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#100

Post by phlakaton »

CydeWeys wrote: post #4
vikramkr wrote: post #3

Esperanto isn't actually that universal. It's very European, using a Latin alphabet, grammar and syntax from romance languages, etc. Its going to be very easy for a Spanish or English or German speaker to pick up, for example. Probably a bit less easy for someone speaking a language on the idno side of indo European, like a hindi speaker, and then progressively harder as you get further and further away from the lang…

You're not wrong, but if you're designing a universal language I think Latin script is the only feasible option. You're not helping anyone if you invent an entirely new script that everyone has to learn from scratch, and that doesn't even have extant keyboards. Latin script is the only choice that makes sense -- most people worldwide already have at least some familiarity with it, and it has excellent universal hardw…

𐑢𐑦𐑔 ·𐑿𐑯𐑦𐑒𐑴𐑛, 𐑞 𐑦𐑯𐑑𐑤𐑴𐑛𐑳𐑒𐑖𐑩𐑯 𐑝 𐑯𐑵 𐑨𐑤𐑓𐑩𐑚𐑧𐑑𐑦𐑒 𐑕𐑦𐑕𐑑𐑩𐑥 𐑐𐑮𐑩𐑟𐑧𐑯𐑑𐑕 𐑯𐑴 𐑕𐑦𐑜𐑯𐑦𐑓𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑑𐑧𐑒𐑯𐑩𐑤𐑪𐑡𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤 𐑐𐑮𐑪𐑚𐑤𐑩𐑥𐑟, 𐑨𐑟 𐑿 𐑒𐑩𐑯 𐑕𐑰.

(With Unicode, the introduction of new alphabetic writing systems presents no significant technological problems, as you can see.)

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