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The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

nytimes.com

51–60 of 421 posts

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#51

Given how much the issue of free speech comes up here on HN -- especially regarding Twitter, Facebook, and politics -- I think this is a really important article for people to read. It's long, but is extremely nuanced and shows that the issue is far more complex than just "the solution to offensive speech is more speech". One key takeaway is in the middle: > [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good id…

Not only is our view of free speech different today, but the US has a long history of censoring minority groups. Take the Hays code for instance which made it de facto against the law for movies to portray gay men in a positive way or "race mixing" at all. That was around until nearly the 70s. That's still within living memory [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Co...

Liberals fought against the Hays Code. And now they condone Twitter and Facebook on the same premise as those who defended the Hays Code: that its private actors voluntarily policing speech that’s harmful to society.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#52
post #37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the article? It's a lot more subtle than what can be captured by general statements like that.

> Somewhere along the way, the conservative majority has lost sight of an essential point: The purpose of free speech is to further democratic participation. Is that actually true? It seems critical to her argument, but this statement was presented without much evidence (just a quote from a law professor) - but is that actually the purpose of the first amendment?

Apparently the ideas in the first amendment were influenced by the enlightenment thinkers philosophies from Europe such as John Locke and Cesare Beccaria. It's said that Thomas Jefferson influenced James Madison heavily as well in having him come up with the bill of rights.

So already you can read up on those people and their phylosophies to get a better idea of the concepts behind freedom of speech.

Similarly, about 200 ideas were proposed by the various states to be included in it, and Madison selected 10 from those ideas. It can be interesting to see the ones that weren't selected. And there were influenced from states bill of rights, the English bill of rights and the Magna Carta as well.

For Freedom of Speech I found:

> He studied at Princeton where a great focus was placed on speech and debate. He also studied the Greeks, who are known for valuing freedom of speech, too—that was the premise of Socrates' and/or Plato's work.

This was his first draft for it:

> The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed. The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable. The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the Legislature by petitions, or remonstrances, for redress of their grievances.

Various dictionaries say:

> Free speech means the free and public expression of opinions without censorship, interference and restraint by the government

> Free press means the right of individuals to express themselves through publication and dissemination of information, ideas and opinions without interference, constraint or prosecution by the government.

And there was a legislative case where Madison argued against the narrower interpretation from common law of what is considered speech. So at least we believe it includes a broader set of speech then that.

The main issue that's unclear, and might have been unclear on purpose, is that the constitution says: "the freedom of speech" emphasise on "the". The presence of the "the" article suggests it refers to the existing freedom of speech that existed at the time. And debates about how wide or narrow was that at that time still linger.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#53
post #3

This is a pretty good read and fairly nuanced. IMHO free speech needs accountability and massive increases in education resources to be effective. Without accountability, the loudest voices can set what is true to many. This congregates power into the already powerful, until new means of information dissemination are created to allow new voices. However those too will need the same accountability or will fall to the…

This congregates power into the already powerful As opposed to throwing people in prison for expressing incorrect views? Who do you think will be in charge of that process? Hint: not the powerless.

That's a bit of a reactionary straw man there.

Nobody said anything about prosecution for incorrect views. Neither I, nor the article, advocate for jail. Accountability can take many forms , none of them need to be dire. Many can just be tantamount to better transparency so we know who to hold accountable in the first place, and the requirement for posting sources in political ads for further reading.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#54
post #45
post #3

This is a pretty good read and fairly nuanced. IMHO free speech needs accountability and massive increases in education resources to be effective. Without accountability, the loudest voices can set what is true to many. This congregates power into the already powerful, until new means of information dissemination are created to allow new voices. However those too will need the same accountability or will fall to the…

> massive increases in education resources This is why China is the most advanced country in the world. They have entire camps set up for immersive education for people who talk about religious nonsense! How progressive!

That's a straw man in bad faith.

Increasing education resources doesn't have to have an end goal of reeducation camps.

Education is woefully underfunded in America, especially rural America.

Starting with giving people access to the same level of education across the board is a good first step in increasing critical thinking.

Not everything has to be torn down into authoritarian versus a free for all. There are lots of shades of grey in between.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#55
I really hope people take this article seriously and not just knee jerk react to the idea that unobstructed free speech is totally perfect. The idea that there should be no consequences for spewing vitriol and using lies to back it up is insane. It's been demonstrated time and time again that people can't fact check every single statement and this fact is used by malicious actors to manipulate people to their ends.

Its also really strange because for every other system we have, we accept legislatively enforced boundaries. There are constraints around the manufacturing of drugs, food products, vehicles, etc. We have regulations around pollution.

Even for abstract ideas, we socially agree on norms. Nobody would think it's acceptable to just called somebody the n word (or some other derogatory word) in the work place. Healthy companies tend to get rid of 'brilliant jerks' who yell or bully other employees, despite their technical competence. Why? Because we understand that this attitude creates a corrosive environment that is fundamentally not beneficial for the good of the group. We even understand this in personal relationships. We break up with people who lie to us and manipulate us.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the outcome of Citizens United?

The wikipedia summary ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC ) is pretty good. The government can't prohibit anyone (people, corporations, unions, etc) from making political speech, so long as it's not directed by the candidate. So I can't donate a billion dollars to a candidate's campaign, but I can run a billion dollars of ads supporting him (or against his opponent), so long as I don't receive dire…

That wasn’t the “outcome” of Citizens United. The outcome was that the government can’t punish a small non-profit from making a movie critical of a candidate within 90 days of an election.

You can read whatever you want into the implications of the rule articulated in the case. Folks on the other side can say that, if the decision had gone the other way, nothing would stop the government from regulating how the New York Times uses its corporate funds.

But it’s important to look at the actual case, legally because it is really the only thing that’s decided, but practically because it is an actual conduct the government decided to prosecute. The government didn’t think the law just covers billion dollar advocacy campaigns. It prosecuted a small non-profit entity for publishing a movie. It’s not a “parade of horribles” hypothetical consequence, it actually happened. The “alternative” would be allowing the government to prosecute this non-profit for publishing a political movie.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#57

It's ironic that Emily Bazelon, the author of this essay, is the granddaughter of the late influential federal judge David Bazelon. Judge Bazelon was a well-known progressive and a well-known free speech proponent. Although his granddaughter shares his broadly progressive worldview, her position on this issue is different. The evolution from David to Emily reflects that of the US left as a whole. Most people like to…

> In practice, it is a tool for those who don't occupy the commanding heights of a culture to push back against those who do.

But isn't the article arguing the exact opposite?

It warns that those in power now use the shield of "free speech" to push propaganda and lies in order to undermine truth and democracy and thereby attempt to preserve power. Which is not something anyone saw coming, and which deserves to be treated as a serious danger.

This is completely and utterly different from using free speech to promote civil rights, transparency, etc. The New Left wasn't weaponizing free speech to spread disinformation, so the two situations would appear to be completely distinct.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#58
post #54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> massive increases in education resources This is why China is the most advanced country in the world. They have entire camps set up for immersive education for people who talk about religious nonsense! How progressive!

That's a straw man in bad faith. Increasing education resources doesn't have to have an end goal of reeducation camps. Education is woefully underfunded in America, especially rural America. Starting with giving people access to the same level of education across the board is a good first step in increasing critical thinking. Not everything has to be torn down into authoritarian versus a free for all. There are lots…

It's not just underfunded in rural America. It's underfunded in urban America also.

The world is a smaller place than you think. You could get on a plane and be in one of those re-education camps tomorrow if allowed foreigners in it. It's a real thing that is happening now. In the name of education. Because those people are expressing beliefs that the authorities don't condone.

Rural America is where people who have different beliefs from you are. Which is really what this is about. Otherwise you would have included all of the urban and suburban education underfunding.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#59

Given how much the issue of free speech comes up here on HN -- especially regarding Twitter, Facebook, and politics -- I think this is a really important article for people to read. It's long, but is extremely nuanced and shows that the issue is far more complex than just "the solution to offensive speech is more speech". One key takeaway is in the middle: > [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good id…

> [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good ideas win. The better argument will prove persuasive. Wrong, wrong, wrong! Free speech is pessimistic as heck. It's saying that good ideas don't necessarily win, but if you allow authoritarians to engage in arbitrary censorship then bad ideas will always win. Censoring free speech is not just a "crude authoritarian's" move; it's what all authoritarians do whe…

Well, traditionally according to political philosophy, free speech is most associated with John Stuart Mill who did praise it out of optimism. That is the common understanding of it.

I'm not sure what philosophical viewpoint you're referring to when you describe it as "pessimistic as heck".

If you want to seriously engage with the issue, the article explores a lot of aspects of it, and why 100% unfettered free speech is potentially a problem to democracy.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#60
post #58
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a straw man in bad faith. Increasing education resources doesn't have to have an end goal of reeducation camps. Education is woefully underfunded in America, especially rural America. Starting with giving people access to the same level of education across the board is a good first step in increasing critical thinking. Not everything has to be torn down into authoritarian versus a free for all. There are lots…

It's not just underfunded in rural America. It's underfunded in urban America also. The world is a smaller place than you think. You could get on a plane and be in one of those re-education camps tomorrow if allowed foreigners in it. It's a real thing that is happening now. In the name of education. Because those people are expressing beliefs that the authorities don't condone. Rural America is where people who have…

You seem to be the one making it about different teams. I specifically said it's underfunded across the country, with an emphasis on rural America because they generally have lower funding available.

I'm not sure why you keep jumping to authoritative straw man arguments. Please at least try and argue in good faith and read what I'm writing.

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