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The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

nytimes.com

31–40 of 421 posts

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#31
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is our view of free speech different today, but the US has a long history of censoring minority groups. Take the Hays code for instance which made it de facto against the law for movies to portray gay men in a positive way or "race mixing" at all. That was around until nearly the 70s. That's still within living memory [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Co...

What does "de facto against the law" even mean? The Hays code was an industry-imposed form of censorship, there were no actual consequences, legal or otherwise, to ignoring it.

At the time, movies weren't protected by the First Amendment, so many states and cities had active censorship boards and there was discussion of federal regulation. The Hays code was an attempt to establish nationwide standards that would satisfy the censors.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#32

Given how much the issue of free speech comes up here on HN -- especially regarding Twitter, Facebook, and politics -- I think this is a really important article for people to read. It's long, but is extremely nuanced and shows that the issue is far more complex than just "the solution to offensive speech is more speech". One key takeaway is in the middle: > [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good id…

> [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good ideas win.

I disagree with this statement. Free speech has no say on who "wins". Free speech is based on the principle that everyone has a right to be vocal about what they believe, even if you disagree with it. The alternative is giving up the power to others to decide who can speak and for what reason, whether you agree with it or not.

Many people don't want to hear this, but if hypothetically the majority of a population believes in and talks nonsense, then that's what the population wants and that population should live with those consequences. What we have here is not a political problem, but a human problem, and involving politics as a bandaid has shown time and time again that those doing the censoring don't do it for the "common good". Corruption and self-interest is attractive to people in those positions, again, because they are humans and what we have is a human problem, not a political problem.

The difference between the former and latter manifestation of human problems is that in one a small group of imperfect humans make the rules for the rest, whereas in the other no one decides who can say what and people get the consequences they bequeath upon themselves.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#33

It's ironic that Emily Bazelon, the author of this essay, is the granddaughter of the late influential federal judge David Bazelon. Judge Bazelon was a well-known progressive and a well-known free speech proponent. Although his granddaughter shares his broadly progressive worldview, her position on this issue is different. The evolution from David to Emily reflects that of the US left as a whole. Most people like to…

> In practice, it is a tool for those who don't occupy the commanding heights of a culture to push back against those who do.

And this is a good thing. The commanding heights of culture should be as contestable as possible; this is what makes for an open society.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#35

It's ironic that Emily Bazelon, the author of this essay, is the granddaughter of the late influential federal judge David Bazelon. Judge Bazelon was a well-known progressive and a well-known free speech proponent. Although his granddaughter shares his broadly progressive worldview, her position on this issue is different. The evolution from David to Emily reflects that of the US left as a whole. Most people like to…

Agreed. And I'm concerned about the future if Biden wins, as seems likely. Today many progressives recognize at least the practical value of free speech, because the alternative is Trump and McConnell deciding what you're allowed to say. But if Democrats take Congress and the presidency, it's going to be very tempting for them to try to shut down opposing views. And the first amendment may not be a shield; with control over the courts it can be reinterpreted into irrelevancy.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#36
post #4

Given how much the issue of free speech comes up here on HN -- especially regarding Twitter, Facebook, and politics -- I think this is a really important article for people to read. It's long, but is extremely nuanced and shows that the issue is far more complex than just "the solution to offensive speech is more speech". One key takeaway is in the middle: > [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good id…

I wonder if the argument you've highlighted is a good idea, or a particularly dangerous one. Maybe we should discuss it and find out. Or maybe we should call what you're saying 'propaganda' and ban it outright, since it might call for 'radical' and 'potentially destabilizing' 'changes to our democracy'. It would be too bad if you could only present it as an opinion, in limited arenas far away from anyone who might di…

In practice, free speech is easy to lose. Say we start with equal free speech for both sides of some spectrum. As some ideas from one spectrum take hold, they are selected for. After a while, the ideas of one spectrum slightly overtake the ideas of another, then it's easy for that side to now try and silence the other side and lose that freedom of speech.

It's kind of like that common saying that pure evil is the belief that there is nothing left to know. That's what losing free speech does. It's society thinking "our system right now is the best" and not bothering to try and improve things.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#37
post #29
post #9

Free speech is always a problem. But the problems of not having free speech are worse.

Have you read the article? It's a lot more subtle than what can be captured by general statements like that.

> Somewhere along the way, the conservative majority has lost sight of an essential point: The purpose of free speech is to further democratic participation.

Is that actually true? It seems critical to her argument, but this statement was presented without much evidence (just a quote from a law professor) - but is that actually the purpose of the first amendment?

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#38
Sometime around 2014-2016, it seems like the progressive left collectively realized that they were losing certain battles in the information war on the Internet, and opted to pursue censorship, deplatforming, and outright violence (e.g., "punch nazis") instead.

That's not to say that they were losing every battle, but the fact that they were losing some battles--that some portions of their narrative were just too easy to falsify in an era where any 4channer could grab some data from the DoJ website and make a memeable infographic--that was enough to cause the turn against free speech:

> https://www.city-journal.org/democratic-candidates-racism-cr...

> Yet key parts of the intersectional narrative are not born out by data. It is now a standard trope, implanted in freshmen summer reading lists through the works of Ta-Nehesi Coates and others, that whites pose a severe, if not mortal, threat to blacks. That may have once been true, but it is no longer so today. Just this month, the Bureau of Justice Statistics released its 2018 survey of criminal victimization. According to the study, there were 593,598 interracial violent victimizations (excluding homicide) between blacks and whites last year, including white-on-black and black-on-white attacks. Blacks committed 537,204 of those interracial felonies, or 90 percent, and whites committed 56,394 of them, or less than 10 percent. That ratio is becoming more skewed, despite the Democratic claim of Trump-inspired white violence. In 2012-13, blacks committed 85 percent of all interracial victimizations between blacks and whites; whites committed 15 percent. From 2015 to 2018, the total number of white victims and the incidence of white victimization have grown as well.

I should also point out that the NYTimes ironically has its own well-documented history of disinformation: famously downplaying both the Holocaust and Stalin's purges as they occurred.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#39

Given how much the issue of free speech comes up here on HN -- especially regarding Twitter, Facebook, and politics -- I think this is a really important article for people to read. It's long, but is extremely nuanced and shows that the issue is far more complex than just "the solution to offensive speech is more speech". One key takeaway is in the middle: > [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good id…

> [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good ideas win. The better argument will prove persuasive. Wrong, wrong, wrong! Free speech is pessimistic as heck. It's saying that good ideas don't necessarily win, but if you allow authoritarians to engage in arbitrary censorship then bad ideas will always win. Censoring free speech is not just a "crude authoritarian's" move; it's what all authoritarians do whe…

Free speech is a Monte Carlo method - it certainly delivers a probably good solution.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#40

Sometime around 2014-2016, it seems like the progressive left collectively realized that they were losing certain battles in the information war on the Internet, and opted to pursue censorship, deplatforming, and outright violence (e.g., "punch nazis") instead. That's not to say that they were losing every battle, but the fact that they were losing some battles--that some portions of their narrative were just too eas…

> “It is now a standard trope, implanted in freshmen summer reading lists through the works of Ta-Nehesi Coates and others, that whites pose a severe, if not mortal, threat to blacks.”

This isn’t remotely what the work of Ta-Nehesi Coates even remotely implies so it’s clear you haven’t read their work.

You then go on to cite interracial violence statistics and imply they are racially motivated either way. Your intent and bias are clear.

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