Live data from Hacker News

The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

nytimes.com

21–30 of 421 posts

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#21
post #18

> In the 2010 Citizens United decision, the court’s conservative majority opened the door to allowing corporations (and unions) to spend unlimited amounts on political advocacy, as long as they donated to interest groups and political-action committees rather than to campaigns. Unsurprising to see Emily Bazelon deeply distort Citizens United. That case wasn’t about “unlimited money.” The entity that was prosecuted wa…

That's the thing. The people railing against disinformation are responsible for as much of it as anyone else. They have no moral authority to put themselves in charge of the speech of everyone else. Their illiberal desire to be in control of others speech should be terrifying to anyone who cares about the future of western civilization. Many people are cheering for such control because they think it will only be applied to the "bad people", it's breathtakingly shortsighted.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#22
post #18

> In the 2010 Citizens United decision, the court’s conservative majority opened the door to allowing corporations (and unions) to spend unlimited amounts on political advocacy, as long as they donated to interest groups and political-action committees rather than to campaigns. Unsurprising to see Emily Bazelon deeply distort Citizens United. That case wasn’t about “unlimited money.” The entity that was prosecuted wa…

What was the outcome of Citizens United?

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#23
A problem is the inherent asymmetry in the ease with which one can create a believable lie and the difficulty of ensuring that its refutation reaches everywhere the lie has reached.

You can easily tie up the fact checkers and refuters with what amounts to a denial of service attack.

Should one curtail free speech ? My opinion is no, but one needs to realize what we sign up for when we do that.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#24
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "de facto against the law" even mean? The Hays code was an industry-imposed form of censorship, there were no actual consequences, legal or otherwise, to ignoring it.

Expanding on what katbyte said, the Hays code was adopted by every major studio in the US to replace state run censors. They did this because of the same battle going on right now in social media: "if we self regulate, then we won't need government regulation placed on us." When an entire industry agrees to follow the code and has enforcement options available and does it with the threat of government action if they…

And the big players had a stronger monopoly than seems possible today. Downloading obscure foreign movies isn't quite as easy as Netflix, but in 1960 what wasn't on TV or a few screens was just about unobtainable for almost everyone.

(I guess paying for these downloads runs into a similar situation, mastercard & friends choose to ban things they aren't legally required to.)

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#25
> Facts and transparency are the intended pillars of the modern First Amendment

I don’t think we can ascribe intentions that easily. Speech is also the way people process their emotions, clarify their thoughts, get into dialogue with other people and form a dialectic to discover the truth. If people can’t fight their with words, they will fight with their swords, because they will lose hope of integrating their world-view with others.

I am also bothered the word facts getting thrown out that easily. We are all exploring an infinite problem space with limited knowledge and processing power we have. This has 2 consequences a) no one can have the epistemological monopoly on truth and b) one could definitely deceive themselves and others with factual information that otherwise doesn’t give the complete picture.

Which means, there is no terminal place for reality, and we always need to be in the process of integrating new data, including the perspective of others.

Author bends over backwards to ultimately manufacture consent for censorship, but the problem has never been about misinformation. It is not even about the volume of content to sift true with new media. It is the new platforms themselves with their perverse incentinves.

When we read twitter, we think we are interacting with people. But just like fish not seeing the water, we don’t see the medium, and the fact that the largest entity we are interacting with is the AI that keeps curating the content we see for one and only goal: engagement.

Behind the curtains, the biggest applied psychology experiment is being run by the best paid PhDs of the world; your every interaction is processed through the lens of every single heuristic you have and their failure modes (fallacies, biases) are exploited in the name of engagement.

The result is of course we going crazy, because no one, not even the most self-disciplined stoic, can defend against prolonged exposure to this machine and preserve their rationality.

So to assume the answer to this madness is to restrict speech is not only futile but also harmful. It is empowering the filtering role these platforms play, and will definitely drive us crazier.

Instead I propose this solution; marketplace of ideas now has to incorporate the marketplace for AIs that curate those ideas to be complete. Make it mandatory for any sufficiently large content curator to have alternative recommendation engines users can pick from. Then watch people chosing ones that doesn’t make them enraged at the expense of engagement, that rewards curious, honest intellectual discourse, that doesn’t reward impulsivity etc.

Those recommendation engines are the hidden parties in our speech, constantly whispering “have you heard so and so said this” and carrying around the most enraging but engaging stuff, because it can make a few cents showing you ads everytime you let it speak. We need to make and pick ones that has the best interest of people in mind, not just shareholders’.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#26
It's ironic that Emily Bazelon, the author of this essay, is the granddaughter of the late influential federal judge David Bazelon. Judge Bazelon was a well-known progressive and a well-known free speech proponent. Although his granddaughter shares his broadly progressive worldview, her position on this issue is different.

The evolution from David to Emily reflects that of the US left as a whole. Most people like to praise free speech as a theory. In practice, it is a tool for those who don't occupy the commanding heights of a culture to push back against those who do. When the New Left was ascendant in the 1960s and 1970s, promotion of free speech was an important component of its rise to cultural power. Now that its intellectual descendants occupy the commanding heights, they view it as a threat rather than an asset.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#27

Given how much the issue of free speech comes up here on HN -- especially regarding Twitter, Facebook, and politics -- I think this is a really important article for people to read. It's long, but is extremely nuanced and shows that the issue is far more complex than just "the solution to offensive speech is more speech". One key takeaway is in the middle: > [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good id…

> [Free speech is] a fundamentally optimistic vision: Good ideas win. The better argument will prove persuasive.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Free speech is pessimistic as heck. It's saying that good ideas don't necessarily win, but if you allow authoritarians to engage in arbitrary censorship then bad ideas will always win. Censoring free speech is not just a "crude authoritarian's" move; it's what all authoritarians do whenever they feel they can get away with it. And censorship won't save you from propaganda either: there's a lot of crude propaganda in every totalitarian regime, happily coexisting with censorship of every other point of view!

Free speech is NOT a problem: it's a very real safeguard against critical threats. If you treat it like one, you haven't seriously engaged with the issue.

Re: The Problem of Free Speech in an Age of Disinformation

#28
I kinda disagree with her characterization of the whole "coup attempt" thing, which she presents as "totally fabricated", "without evidence", etc. Which is true - some people sitting in a room wargaming isn't a coup or a plot to take over the country in and of itself. It's not a crime to do that. But the steelman "extremist" (her word) argument is that the publication of the WaPo essay (and Hillary Clinton saying Biden "should not concede under any circumstances", and this essay itself, etc) represents the elite using free speech to establish a Schelling point, or common knowledge, of how to dispute the election. By now anyone with any political awareness knows, and knows that anyone-with-any-political-awareness knows, that the election results won't be known for weeks or months after the election. And that mail-in ballots are going to decide the election. And that Trump is suppressing votes. It's a kind of manufacturing of consent for the intellectual elite who hate Trump. But to them this sort of thing is totally invisible - that kind of speech is good and important for democracy, because it establishes a collective template for coordination-free cooperation to ensure Trump is not reelected. It's the other kind of speech that is bad.
Post reply on HN