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The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

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Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#111

Post by abathur »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #28
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish both sides would realizing their destroying people’s faith in the system And I wish people would stop saying 'both sides' when it's 95% only one side. That's the issue. One side is now against census so people aren't represented, restricting voting so people don't get a say, and people keep saying 'both sides'.

I don't understand the Democratic side here either. There's a question of citizenship, but census data is used to determine allocation of electoral college votes. The electoral college system being something that I support but that Democrats keep trying to undermine. Yeah if you come here undocumented, or illegally, there's pretty natural consequences. I don't think anyone should ignore that. And they seem to want un…

There are multiple games being played concurrently by all of the different participants, making it hard to understand what/why from the local context of a single game.

If both sides erode your faith in the system, I suspect it's because you see real problems that need to be solved, but the people "elected to solve them" are instead constrained by these games.

Speaking of systems--can you clarify what about the electoral college system you support, and perhaps cite either some systemic features/biases/incentives you think it corrects for, or perhaps some points in U.S. history where you think the electoral college system improved overall outcomes?

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#112

Post by nine_zeros »

Things that you hear from Turkey or Brazil or Belarus or some other distant "third-world" or even "communist" countries are happening right in our own backyard.

If we were not the superpower country, we would have already got "sanctions" but no one can yet. But the next time America sanctions other countries for human rights or governance, rest assured they will laugh it off.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#113

Post by spacemanmatt »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #108
WillPostForFood wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the bad optics of this, the US census has traditionally been extremely independent from law enforcement. The government has recently been attacking this barrier e.g. with the citizenship question Two points on history and tradition. The census was originally carried out by the US Marshals. That should indicate the importance and weight of the project. The citizenship question was part of the census until 2…

The census is used to fairly apportion infrastructure to areas where people actually live. That this is done by representation is an artifact of our political system, not the Constitutional mandate that requires he census. It's not a fair question, as you say.

You don't have to like it.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#114

Post by Retric »

crisdux wrote: post #79
Retric wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be close to 50:50 but it’s not 95:5. Less tainted is still tainted. When I say both sides, I mean both sides. Gerrymandering to give minorities districts for example does the same thing to undermine people’s faith in the system. The goal should be to outlaw gerrymandering not find some way to allow it to be useful politically. Should people in DC maintain the right to vote? IMO they should, but it’s beco…

I'm assuming by right to vote you mean congressional representation. Since certainly residents of DC do vote for president, among other leaders. Of course congressional representation for DC is a political issue. Framing this as an issue of democracy doesn't tell the whole story. DC is a federal district and by design has no representation in Congress. This was a political decision. Congressional action to grant DC s…

I would be fine dumping DC voters into MD and or VA, hell randomly assign them across the country.

Playing the hypothetical harm issue is kind of laughing in the face of democracy as an idea. They don’t even have final say in local laws.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#115

Post by RonaldRaygun »

refurb wrote: post #69
cj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democratic Party using the judicial branch and SCOTUS to legislate from the bench because Hasn't the supreme court been majority conservative for quite some time? Not majority liberal? (unless your comment is sarcasm)

Well, since everyone is claiming that with Barrett's nomination that it will turn into a Conservative majority, what does that tell you about what it looks like before that?

Everyone is claiming it will shift it from a 5-4 soft conservative majority, with relatively centrist Bush Jr. appointee John Roberts often siding with the Dem appointees on issues of human rights, immigration, and abortion restrictions, to a 6-3 hard conservative majority that will be well-nigh unbreakable for many years.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#116

Post by TallGuyShort »

abathur wrote: post #111
TallGuyShort wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the Democratic side here either. There's a question of citizenship, but census data is used to determine allocation of electoral college votes. The electoral college system being something that I support but that Democrats keep trying to undermine. Yeah if you come here undocumented, or illegally, there's pretty natural consequences. I don't think anyone should ignore that. And they seem to want un…

There are multiple games being played concurrently by all of the different participants, making it hard to understand what/why from the local context of a single game. If both sides erode your faith in the system, I suspect it's because you see real problems that need to be solved, but the people "elected to solve them" are instead constrained by these games. Speaking of systems--can you clarify what about the electo…

I think the "Great Compromise" helps correct for the fact that people in different locations value different things and have different experiences. People who live in farming communities understand plenty of things that people in cities don't and vice-versa. Beyond that, it's an agreement that was reached between states who were giving up their sovereignty to join together. If we discard compromises like that because people who won the popular vote by a tiny margin now think it's outdated and that they have some democratic mandate, then collectively society has lost my trust to keep it's word on future compromises wherein I'm asked to forfeit some of my independence and sovereignty.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#117

Post by yokaze »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #28
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish both sides would realizing their destroying people’s faith in the system And I wish people would stop saying 'both sides' when it's 95% only one side. That's the issue. One side is now against census so people aren't represented, restricting voting so people don't get a say, and people keep saying 'both sides'.

I don't understand the Democratic side here either. There's a question of citizenship, but census data is used to determine allocation of electoral college votes. The electoral college system being something that I support but that Democrats keep trying to undermine. Yeah if you come here undocumented, or illegally, there's pretty natural consequences. I don't think anyone should ignore that. And they seem to want un…

You don't have to understand the democrats, you just have to understand the Supreme Court ruling.

It's clearly spelled out in the constitution that it should be an accurate count of all people.

People not eligible to vote (non-citizens, mostly slaves) were explicitly intended to be included by design.

If you want that to be different, there is a process for that, and that's a constitutional amendment.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#118

Post by matthewmcg »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #84
bo1024 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many reasons. They discuss poverty in the article. I would agree with cultural distrust of government officials. And very importantly, everything around the citizenship question/issue. > The notion of these counts ever being used for enforcement — basically targeting high population, low citizenship-count blocks for ICE raids or whatever — that would be really, really problematic. Stepping back, think in ge…

Because of the bad optics of this, the US census has traditionally been extremely independent from law enforcement. The government has recently been attacking this barrier e.g. with the citizenship question Two points on history and tradition. The census was originally carried out by the US Marshals. That should indicate the importance and weight of the project. The citizenship question was part of the census until 2…

The distribution of voting power is based on population, not citizenship. Non-citizens need to be counted too.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#119

Post by nonplussed »

matthewmcg wrote: post #118
WillPostForFood wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the bad optics of this, the US census has traditionally been extremely independent from law enforcement. The government has recently been attacking this barrier e.g. with the citizenship question Two points on history and tradition. The census was originally carried out by the US Marshals. That should indicate the importance and weight of the project. The citizenship question was part of the census until 2…

The distribution of voting power is based on population, not citizenship. Non-citizens need to be counted too.

Only citizens can vote.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#120

Post by conception »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #84
bo1024 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many reasons. They discuss poverty in the article. I would agree with cultural distrust of government officials. And very importantly, everything around the citizenship question/issue. > The notion of these counts ever being used for enforcement — basically targeting high population, low citizenship-count blocks for ICE raids or whatever — that would be really, really problematic. Stepping back, think in ge…

Because of the bad optics of this, the US census has traditionally been extremely independent from law enforcement. The government has recently been attacking this barrier e.g. with the citizenship question Two points on history and tradition. The census was originally carried out by the US Marshals. That should indicate the importance and weight of the project. The citizenship question was part of the census until 2…

It’s not based on citizens, but on the number of free persons living there (and three fifths non free). This particular word choice is important s as the census and the house have always been based on who’s living in the state not based on citizens living there.
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