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Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

economist.com

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Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#101

Post by reallydontask »

atmosx wrote: post #99
dboreham wrote: post #65

Apart from watching on TV and the movies, my only brush with this world was a 1/2 day spent interviewing at McLaren in 1990. It was very clear from every engineer I talked to that they had fairly low opinion of the drivers. One of the projects we discussed was a new telemetry system, its primary purpose to allow them to prove conclusively when the driver did something stupid. I didn't take the job if anyone was curio…

McLaren’s driver duo in 1990 were Ayrton Senna and Allen Prost. Are you sure the engineers weren’t just petty little creatures trying to get some spotlight? I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one. Additionally, Senna has proved that he do “well” with much inferior cars, there must be something going on there as well... As someone who races every now and then for fun, I can assure you th…

> I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one

You could turn that around and say that no F1 driver could design a car that would win in aero dominated F1 (mid 70s? onwards).

The car dominates in modern F1, you need look no further than the current Mercs.

Sure a good driver can outdrive the car but do you honestly think that Hamilton would've won in 2015's McLaren?

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#102

Post by raicem »

eaurouge wrote: post #35
systemvoltage wrote: post #14

I mean this in the most respectful way: Can someone please explain the allure of watching F1 race on TV? I honestly sat down with a few friends and we watched Kimi Raikonnen but it was not a lot of action in terms of overtaking and drama - it was mostly inching forward and making time. I fully understand and appreciate the amount of skills that go into driving an F1 car, but what is in for the spectator?

Pretty much every popular somewhat global sport has levels of nuance, detail, backstory that will take some investment in time and interest for you to become familiar with. If the sport doesn’t immediately draw you in, don’t feel you have to keep watching in hopes that it eventually does. This is my current thesis for global sports, especially those with an audience as large as F1’s. “There’s something they get out o…

Fantastic explanation. Sums up my feelings.

I don't know why I watch the every single race. I got into it because I liked the engine noise. I happened to see young Kimi Raikkonen getting into the McLaren car. That was a nice story to follow. I started to pickup other stories. Newey moving to Red Bull, rule changes, Alonso moving to Ferrari, Vettel moving to Ferrari and here I am.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#103

Post by WalterBright »

happyjack wrote: post #82

F1 is an extremely difficult position these days. How can a team(s) increase lap speed YoY, have competitive racing, make money, stay safe, and still have incentives for OEMs to participate? The answer is they can't. At least in the current formula. I think Bernie did a great job running the sport as a dictator, but he set up a house of cards that was doomed. I don't think Chase Carey and Liberty really had a chance.…

I've idly thought that if I was the F1 Czar I'd ban all transistors in the cars, except for in safety equipment. Not even a radio. Have the operation of the car be up to driver skill, not computer programmer virtuosity. (And I'm a programmer!)

Of course, it is possible to make mechanical computers, but they are very costly to develop, heavy, take up lots of space, hard to modify, etc. Besides, it's a lost art.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#104

Post by WalterBright »

atmosx wrote: post #99
dboreham wrote: post #65

Apart from watching on TV and the movies, my only brush with this world was a 1/2 day spent interviewing at McLaren in 1990. It was very clear from every engineer I talked to that they had fairly low opinion of the drivers. One of the projects we discussed was a new telemetry system, its primary purpose to allow them to prove conclusively when the driver did something stupid. I didn't take the job if anyone was curio…

McLaren’s driver duo in 1990 were Ayrton Senna and Allen Prost. Are you sure the engineers weren’t just petty little creatures trying to get some spotlight? I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one. Additionally, Senna has proved that he do “well” with much inferior cars, there must be something going on there as well... As someone who races every now and then for fun, I can assure you th…

I've watched a couple documentaries on Senna. They'd all say Senna just drove faster than the others. Nothing said about just what Senna did to be faster, which was very frustrating. I didn't believe that Senna did anything magical.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#105

Post by raicem »

I totally understand where this article is coming from but it still doesn't take away the appreciation of a good driver for me. I see lot of people coming to conclusions such as "drivers don't matter" after reading such articles. I don't agree with that.

No one is gonna put Albon or Giovinazzi in the Mercedes and think "he'll be fine, we'll still win". Hamilton and Schumacher kinda put themselves up there to be in the position to dominate with the right team of engineers. They put themselves up there with their driving and team building skills.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#106

Post by WalterBright »

reallydontask wrote: post #101
atmosx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McLaren’s driver duo in 1990 were Ayrton Senna and Allen Prost. Are you sure the engineers weren’t just petty little creatures trying to get some spotlight? I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one. Additionally, Senna has proved that he do “well” with much inferior cars, there must be something going on there as well... As someone who races every now and then for fun, I can assure you th…

> I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one You could turn that around and say that no F1 driver could design a car that would win in aero dominated F1 (mid 70s? onwards). The car dominates in modern F1, you need look no further than the current Mercs. Sure a good driver can outdrive the car but do you honestly think that Hamilton would've won in 2015's McLaren?

I took one of those 3 day racing courses (lots of fun, highly recommended!). We drove Formula Fords, with classroom lectures interspersed with track practice.

Early on, we were limited to 50 mph, and were sent out to practice racing lines around Watkins Glen. We thought we were hot stuff wheeling hard around the turns.

Then the instructor told us to get in the van and he'd drive us around giving us pointers. He drove with his left hand on the wheel, and his body turned around facing backwards at us while he lectured us. He was sliding the van around the turns at 70 mph, and I doubt his heart rate exceeded 70 BPM.

It was a very humbling experience.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#107

Post by WalterBright »

ip26 wrote: post #73
itsoktocry wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The driver is merely a pilot doing what is instructed over the radio I think this severely understates the skill of some of the highest paid athletes on the planet.

They have immense skill. The problem is the competition is nearly equally as skilled. We've seen this in a lot of different sports over the decades- as the field of play elevates, the variance from athlete to athlete shrinks.

That's why races in the Olympics are timed to the thousandth of a second. It's nuts.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#108

Post by WalterBright »

wintorez wrote: post #83
ip26 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F1 made 1,500 horsepower thirty five years ago. If such an unrestricted series existed today, we'd probably be looking at 3,000+ horsepower, 300-400mph speeds, and either a) autopilot features (for faster-than-human reactions) or b) absolutely ridiculous levels of fatalities.

If it was up to me, I would create a race where the only limits were: 1) Combustion or electric engines only, no jets or rocket boosters 2) Should fit within a box of certain height-width-depth 3) No human drivers, only remote or AI 4) No type of weapons, or ramming, etc. Only pure speed. I think that would have been an interesting race to watch.

Just have it fly to the finish line.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#109

Post by Aaargh20318 »

barrkel wrote: post #67
wintorez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wished there was a version of F1 with less mechanical and technical regulation to see what human ingenuity could achieve.

The regulations exist both to put a cap on what the teams need to spend on R&D (if it's too much then smaller manufacturers and teams pull out and there's only two or three cars on the grid), and to make it safer for the drivers.

The solution seems simple to me: take the drivers out of the car. Let them operate the cars remotely, then they can get rid of all the safety regulations. It both removes the risk for the driver and makes the sport more exciting to see at the same time.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#110

Post by ExcavateGrandMa »

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