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FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

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221–230 of 261 posts

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument on monopoly is getting muddied, a monopoly isn't based on consumer's choosing a preferred service, but that they have no choice of provider. Twitter is popular because people choose to use it, but they have the choice to use other services, or to attempt to create one, and compete with the current popular one, the difficulty of succeeding in the field doesn't change if it is a monopoly (unless of…

> A monopoly isn't based on consumer's choosing a preferred service, but that they have no choice of provider. Survey a hundred small publishers, and ask them whether their use of Twitter is a choice.

You can 100% exist today, and not use twitter at all, so its certainly a choice. Do you honestly believe that you can not effectively market your business or communicate with customers without twitter?

It is absolutely a choice.

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just educate users" didn't work when there were a few hundred to a few thousand users. It's one of the reasons, though granted not the only one, why Usenet was a hole and people migrated to saner pastures when they were available. What makes you think it's any more feasible when it's "now you just need to go administer your ration of racism and transphobia and personal threats" on a millions-to-billions scale? If yo…

Re. the scale of the effort required on the client side by the user, I think you missed the "kludgy UI/UX" bit. Obviously , we need to address the kludgy kill-file approach. > you're falling for .. You seem to think that you know a lot about me. Let me gently suggest that possibly your technical imagination is failing to show you alternatives that solves all these issues. So, actually, it is not a case of falling for…

Again, the bad actors in question will scream about tools made to help the general public deal with them, too, because it's not about some ethical thing, it is that they demand to have their sewage spewed at all comers and you are bad if you don't let them. There is a level of malice here that I feel you are definitely dismissing while charging end users with a level of responsibility that it is impractical to handle regardless of what UI/UX affordances you want to put on it.

It's not a UI/UX problem. It's a "you are offloading moderation to the end user" problem--it is a fundamental failure of the approach. If you are going to put all of the work of moderation on the end user, regardless of whether you dress it up as "shared moderation" or whatever, the end user is going to leave and cede the floor to those who want to dominate the public discourse with sewage and crud and threats because the end user has a life to live and things to do with their day. There is a fundamental human cost to being exposed to the kind of garbage that Twitter et al filter out on the regular. It takes a toll on the psyche. It will drive people away. And that's not a "but muh engagement" for whoever's metrics and KPIs are involved--it is a realization that this is now the public square and ceding it to actively anti-civil movements is bad for liberalized society in general.

If there's a failing of technical imagination on my part, fine. There strongly seems to be a failing of appreciation of how modern supremacist movements operate on yours. This is not a technical problem, this is a human problem. It's a question of whether the psychic damage inflicted upon bystanders by constant and unending exposure (because that is, genuinely, what the end state here is) is worth whatever hypothetical benefit is realized by giving these parties a place from which to abuse others until they definitely, yessir, are blocked by all of them and never, ever seek to get around it to continue their abuse.

> And why would I be otherwise?

Speaking frankly? Because this discussion is dominated by bad-faith types whose axe to grind is really that there's a movement against their favorite flavors of supremacism and they generally use arguments like the one you're putting forth as retrenchment now that the tide has turned against them. If that isn't your bag, I appreciate that; I think you're incorrect, but that's separate from disingenuous.

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different rules apply with scale. HN is fine doing whatever it does but global monopolies require special handling.

Where does your cutoff apply? At what point are there "too many users"? How would you prevent something like that from being a completely arbitrary platform killer?

The courts would decide just like they do when a company is thought to have become a monopoly. This is not a new problem entirely but in this hyper politicized moment in the country it somehow has turned, just like everything else, into a left vs right issue. Its pathetic how we lost the hability to look at the issues without partisan glasses.

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the fact remains that Twitter is a viable product only because it is granted special immunity from legal consequences for publishing, immunity that you or I would not enjoy if we were to publish the very same content on a personal website, or hand out pamphlets on the street. That’s not quite true — Section 230 protects all platforms from liability for content produced by third parties . You enjoy that exact sa…

> Twitter does not enjoy immunity for content that they themselves produce Exactly. If the law is not changed, any challenge would hinge on the court defining their curation process as an act of production. It may not be as far-fetched as you think: DJ Shadow can copyright a song made entirely from snippets of other recorded music. For the record, I think the law should be changed. Twitter is categorically different…

> Exactly. If the law is not changed, any challenge would hinge on the court defining their curation process as an act of production.

Any challenge to what? I don’t understand what you’re proposing here. Even if Section 230 were repealed, Twitter would be perfectly free to e.g. censor all conservative content. The issue is that by doing so, they might be liable for unrelated content they allow that ends up being defamatory.

> Twitter is categorically different from a small/personal website. You could argue that it is a natural monopoly.

This would be a hard argument to make. There are hundreds of competing social networking communities, some of which are even bigger!

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#225

The most concerning thing about the tweet to me is the popular replies which support Pai's statement. The media, and those of us who understand what Pai did to net neutrality, need to do a better job of communicating to the general public exactly what Pai is, and what he's there to do. It would also be nice if people understood that section 230 protections allow the internet as we know it (not just the social media g…

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Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were other operating systems for PCs besides MS Windows in the 1990s, but Windows was still a monopoly. Yes Myspace was a monopoly until Facebook opened to tbe public because it was the only way a bunch of people were willing to communicate for a while.

I think you might want to do some double checking on your history. Firstly Microsoft monopoly got thrown out because of unethical behavior of the judge (which is why there isn't two Microsoft entities today. The whole thing hinged on "Microsoft installed its browser by default which gave it an unfair advantage." To allow the DOJ to save face, Microsoft agreed to make it easier to install other browsers. And My Space…

First - you seem to be misunderstanding (or misrepresenting) the facts and results of the Microsoft case.

> Firstly Microsoft monopoly got thrown out because of unethical behavior of the judge (which is why there isn't two Microsoft entities today. The whole thing hinged on "Microsoft installed its browser by default which gave it an unfair advantage." To allow the DOJ to save face, Microsoft agreed to make it easier to install other browsers.

Nothing was 'thrown out', rather the penalty was changed after the higher court issued a ruling that actually changed the liability implications for MS, which allowed MS to negotiate a lesser judgement. Findings of fact and the ruling were not overthrown, despite questions about judge Jackson's impartiality.

Beyond that, the US was not the only jurisdiction in which Microsoft was taken to court and found guilty of monopolistic practices. "DOJ" is meaningless in courts outside the US, so your statement doesn't even make logical sense as a component of your argument.

Second - you seem to be standing behind a single dictionary definition for what constitutes a monopoly. That's fine when discussing certain technicalities in abstraction, but completely ignores the fact that the dictionary definition is meaningless in terms of law. A monopoly can absolutely exist even in the presence of competitive options, and that is very clearly laid out in many ways in various laws and legal precedents. The Sherman Act* alone has very clear statements about this, and absolutely contradicts what you are saying. Monopolistic behavior is about controlling the market and/or using market/industry dominance to prevent or stifle competition. It is not about the sheer absence of competition.

* https://www.justice.gov/atr/competition-and-monopoly-single-...

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were other operating systems for PCs besides MS Windows in the 1990s, but Windows was still a monopoly. Yes Myspace was a monopoly until Facebook opened to tbe public because it was the only way a bunch of people were willing to communicate for a while.

I think you might want to do some double checking on your history. Firstly Microsoft monopoly got thrown out because of unethical behavior of the judge (which is why there isn't two Microsoft entities today. The whole thing hinged on "Microsoft installed its browser by default which gave it an unfair advantage." To allow the DOJ to save face, Microsoft agreed to make it easier to install other browsers. And My Space…

> Firstly Microsoft monopoly got thrown out because of unethical behavior of the judge

No, it didn't.

The remedy (not the finding of monopoly and abuse of that monopoly) got sent back by a higher court for new proceedings, and then due to a change in Administration to one friendlier to (and, coincidentally, heavily supported by) Microsoft, the government stopped seeking breakup as a remedy while the new proceedings were pending, and a far weaker remedy was mutually negotiated as a settlement.

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it time for Twitter to be considered a utility? ISPs evolved from “online service providers” which themselves evolved from “bulletin board systems”, and if you consider an ISP to be a utility today, then there was a point where that kind of service became a utility.

Historically, utilities/public services are things that have a natural monopoly, which absolutely applies to ISP/other wireline telcoms (city franchise licenses), mobile cell service (limited competition due to spectrum auctions and the need for enough nationwide spectrum to be accumulated to launch a viable service), water, sewer, power, gas, etc. It might apply to things like undersea cables, although there isn't r…

I would actually argue that social media forms natural monopolies. The network effect creates an enormous advantage for incumbents.

> It is technically quite trivial to clone the basic functionality of Twitter and run a competing service. This has been done semi-sucessfully with Gab (not endorsing that community, but it is a good example), for example. People choose social media services based on their perceived value, social prestige, etc.

It is quite simple to create software that mimics Twitter, sure. It is very, very hard to create a platform like Twitter. That further reinforces it as a natural monopoly to me. You can even look at how the companies rise and fall; typically if the incumbent fails, they do so entirely, and the new competitor eats all of their lunch (i.e. MySpace and Facebook, Digg/Slashdot/Reddit, etc). There are very rarely situations where a new competitor comes and splits the market share; they either take it all, or they get none.

> There's no equivalent to "I have to use Twitter because they own the lines to the house/they have the only 5G coverage in my area/they are the only company licensed by my city."

There absolutely is. "I have to use Twitter because that's where everyone I want to talk to is, and they don't allow any interoperation with other social networks." It's fundamentally the same thing, and treating them like a utility would involve forcing them to treat their platform like utility poles. They can charge a fee to the other companies that interoperate to recoup their costs and get some profit, but they have to allow the interoperation.

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a forum like HN cannot even have rules that a discussion has to be on topic/within the scope of the site? Wikipedia cannot have notability and credibility policies (I guess that is an edge case since it is other editors actually doing the removing, but according to community consensus guidelines)? A forum for a marginalized group needs to allow hate speech against them, so long as its not illegal? All the while th…

It has to be treated as criminal negligence when a platform applies its 'Terms of Use' or rule of conduct, selectively. I think that will solve the problem. Today, HN or Twitter can, selectively, diminish visibility of pro-conservative content and posts, while not applying the same scrutiny to the other side. They can sit there and claim neutrality, ask for 'evidence' and so on. But really, they are the ones that sho…

Sure they can. And "pro-conservative" users as well as anyone who likes to read their content can start their own forum for discussion online, or use one that their find more welcoming.

Re: FCC to move ahead with 'rulemaking' on Section 230

#230
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or you want to forbid them from moderating The goal would be to put significant, very large restictions on their ability to moderate. > There are already forums with “zero” moderation How about we look at other examples of communication platforms, that are working perfectly fine. Just take a look at the phone network, or ISPs. ISPs and phone networks, have very little "moderation" from the parent company, and yet s…

Because a discussion forum is not the same as a phone network. It just isn’t. Why would the rules that govern the phone network make sense to apply to Wikipedia? It’s weird to be having this argument on one of the very forums that benefits from 230. Do you think HN would be a better place if it were forbidden from moderating content? Were you here before dang came along? Can you imagine how much spam gets deleted bef…

I wonder whether it would suffice to just have a link to the NSFW/L "Unmoderated" version and remove only that which has valid legal complaints (e.g. DMCA) or illegal content (which should also be made very clear by the lawmakers, in an easy and feasible way to implement, but that's a tangent).
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