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Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

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Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#172
post #7
post #4

Hacked billboards are hard to come by. We've already seen signs that autopilot can be tricked by malicious lines on a road. Not that long 'til somebody points a projector at the ground in front of a Tesla and it crosses into oncoming traffic. You could even mount that projector on a panel van, and use image recognition to target Teslas and otherwise stay inactive

> projector at the ground in front of a Tesla and it crosses into oncoming traffic I don't understand why people come up with all these ridiculous "what if" ideas against autonomous cars as if it's anything new. It's already exceedingly easy to foul up a human driver. Stand next to a freeway and hold up a stop sign. Drop a foam mannequin from a bridge over the road. Paint some bogus lane lines. Shine a laser at their…

Perhaps because the promise of autonomy is that you will be able to let go, close your eyes, take a nap, or read a book. That is really hard to do if you have even a 0.0001% chance of hitting something and dying because your car didn't do something right.

Sure, your chances of getting into an accident while driving your own car are higher, and some dummy could throw a turkey onto your windshield and kill you ...etc, but humans don't think in probabilities (well, outside of Hacker News humans), and while driving their on car humans have an illusion of control, when the car is driving itself and you are sleeping, that control is gone.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they don’t have lidar and therefore can’t reliably measure depth, right? A billboard far away high up in the air may appear in the same direction as a closer road sign if you don’t have depth perception. You should be able to infer it from a camera with the right model but those methods are more fallible. Similar root cause to that time the guy got beheaded by a white truck perpendicular to the hi…

I believe they are making depth perception using computer vision. The idea is that if you can take an image and predict the distances to the objects in it, you can then create an image that is a transpose of the original based on your predictions, but at a different distance. In case of Tesla moving forward, that would be a split second later, closer to the original image. As the car moves forward, you actually take…

It is called depth from motion. I think this is what the Google guys used to create the 3D buildings view back then.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is public transportation really monumentally expensive when compared to almost every adult spending somewhere between $5,000 and $150,000 every 5-10 years on a car? AAA says the average American spends nearly $9k/year owning/operating a vehicle. That'd buy a lot of public transportation infrastructure.

Right, but in return those Americans are getting transportation that actually takes them from point A to point B directly. It's very hard to really gauge the impact this has on human productivity, especially given that in public transit you don't need to control your vehicle and so can be doing something else (although from my anecdotal experience, the vast majority of public transiters are doing nothing productive o…

Indeed. Transportation is a hugely complicated issue. I'm not sure why people are downvoting the parent comment for pointing this out.

I suspect that to make real progress we will need to move away from our current assumptions. I'm not from the US, where perhaps the expectations and practicalities of transportation can be quite different to somewhere like Europe. But even here, there is a tendency to conflate mass transportation (buses, trains, etc.) with public transportation (vehicles run as a service by someone else, rather than owned personally and reserved exclusively for the use of their owner). As the existence of alternatives like taxis and school minibuses demonstrates, these are really two separate axes. And that's before we get to all the complexities of how we pay for transportation, both individually and as a society collectively.

There are some big advantages to providing individual transportation tailored to each specific journey. Going door to door at an exact time of their choosing can obviously be more efficient, sometimes several times more efficient, for the individual traveller than having to connect to and travel via a network of predefined locations on a predetermined timetable. There are also some health and security implications for travelling individually, and of course it can be much more comfortable because you have plenty of space, a guaranteed seat, your preferred temperature and ventilation levels, etc.

There are also some big downsides to individual transportation using the options we typically have available today. In particular, the individual vehicles we use right now are often not well suited to any particular journey. People are more likely to own a single vehicle, which they use for anything from taking their whole family on a long distance journey to a one-person drive to work or for shopping. That can be very inefficient in terms of space usage, environmental impact and operating costs. But then owning multiple vehicles, suitably sized and featured for different types of journey, is also very inefficient if each of them then spends most of the time sitting idle in a garage somewhere. And there are safety implications for using a smaller personal vehicle on the same roads as bigger, more dangerous vehicles operated by fallible drivers, as anyone who cycles around a big city can testify.

On top of that, you have an emergent system where there are millions of individual journeys happening on the same infrastructure with at best some very local co-ordination via things like lights at junctions. If you look at the mathematics underlying transport networks, you can see how this can lead to all kinds of surprising and sometimes very unhelpful overall outcomes, even if everyone is acting logically as an individual part of the system.

But there is no rule that says things always have to be this way. Sometimes mass transit uses dedicated infrastructure, as with trains and planes, and sometimes it's shared with individual transport, as with most buses and trams. Future infrastructure could be designed to support, as one possible example, both small and efficient personal vehicles and larger vehicles with space for more passengers and/or cargo that could be summoned on request, with preferred routes and timing specified by each traveller, but with the actual co-ordination of the vehicles administered centrally and the vehicles themselves operating autonomously.

It's obviously a huge jump from where we are today to such a system, and there would be all kinds of difficult questions about how we could migrate from one to the other even if we somehow all agreed on where we were ultimately trying to reach. But one thing is for sure: we can't even start working towards a system like that as long as we stick to preconceived notions of public transportation as mass transit with fixed timetables on large vehicles like buses or trains, and private transport as the family car as we know it today.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#176
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are a lot of similar failure modes in humans. there are lot of similar failure modes in individual humans. The difference is individual driver errors are not correlated, a bad reflection tricks a few humans at once instead of tens of thousands of cars running the same model. There is significantly more brittleness in a fleet of cars than in a population of humans, because the human population has diversity in…

True. People need to stop comparing self driving cars favorably to the worst performing humans. Gives companies license to release these badly performing cars into the streets.

They are assistive systems. The only thing that's badly performing are the users who misuse them and get themselves into trouble.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#178
post #3
post #2

States just need to start mandating LIDAR for any level of autonomous certification, in the same way we finally figured out seatbelts were the minimum level of safety for passenger retention.

Mandating how a certain outcome should be achieved generally is not the best (efficient, quickest, cheapest, etc.) way in getting to that outcome. Autonomous certification should have its safety requirements for each level and require the vehicles meet that standard. Autonomous vehicles have the potential to reduce deaths and injuries dramatically and increasing the time to get there will cause thousands to millions…

Autonomous vehicles do of course have the potential to reduce deaths but there are lots of examples of this being the preferred method of regulation in the auto industry. For example if you want to sell a motorcycle in the US it has to have a kill switch in a specific place on the right handlebar. You don't (as a manufacturer) get to innovate about this because it's a safety feature and a first responder needs to be able to locate the kill switch so it always has to be in the same exact place so they can always find it. If you want to sell a car in Europe (I believe) it has to have seatbelts, ABS and a catalytic converter that meets a particular specification etc etc.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#179
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they are making depth perception using computer vision. The idea is that if you can take an image and predict the distances to the objects in it, you can then create an image that is a transpose of the original based on your predictions, but at a different distance. In case of Tesla moving forward, that would be a split second later, closer to the original image. As the car moves forward, you actually take…

It is called depth from motion. I think this is what the Google guys used to create the 3D buildings view back then.

and depth from motion is really just stereoscopy using multiple photos from the same camera instead of two photos from two different cameras.

I have a side project where I manage to get a helluva lot of depth info using a single photo from a single camera (monocular photogrammetry).

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#180

I think the concept of the line of death, from browser security UI design, is relevant here. The space outside of the highway right of way is completely uncontrolled and the Tesla should know better than to look at a billboard hundreds of feet up in the air for regulatory signs. The MUTCD has rules about where signs are to be placed--look only in those places. [1] https://textslashplain.com/2017/01/14/the-line-of-dea…

Someone else linked this[0] article that has a video of the attack. I think seeing the video will paint a different picture than what you have in your head. The "billboard" here is in a location that a stop sign would be, not your average highway billboard. One would hope Tesla's system has some depth awareness. Honestly I'd be impressed how they could do so much if it didn't. [0] https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-mo…

This is pretty important. The way the guys does this is very close to how you could also fool a human by hanging up real stop signs in the wrong places, and "stupidity" people would start to respect them.

The only difference here is that a mere 500 ms flash elicites a response, where a human wouldn't notice. on balance, a 500 ms response time does seem like a feature more than a bug compared to a human.

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