Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

newsweek.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 264 posts

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#141

Post by im3w1l »

nexuist wrote: post #61
GuB-42 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla cars are far from being autonomous. Autopilot (including the so called "full self driving") is level 2, meaning that the driver has to pay attention at all times. From a driver responsibility point of view, it is a fancy cruise control, there is no question about autonomous certification because the car isn't autonomous. If one day, Tesla thinks it is OK for drivers not to pay attention and wants to make it leg…

This day came and passed years ago. It's evident from their marketing that there is no attempt to discern fancy cruise control from "zomfg your car will drive you around in a year!!" Whether this is false advertising or even just moral is up in the air, but Tesla is making no attempts at educating consumers about the limits of their autonomy other than the bare minimum (yeah you technically have to keep both hands on…

Driving on the freeway is fairly easy right? Stay in your lane, keep distance. Of course there was that one guy who crashed into a divider on autopilot and died. But I could see it being not-that-unsafe to have your attention elsewhere.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#142

Post by hellotomyrars »

mattbee wrote: post #53
falcolas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, from TFA: "They're also so fleeting that they're difficult for the human eye to detect, and leave behind very little evidence." We've already got people who do things purely for the lulz (swatting, anybody) who could easily justify away these kinds of activities.

Both good points - so this kind of crime would likely be indistinguishable from a random, terrifying software failure, with the blame falling on the car maker.

I mean it is a failing of the manufacturer on some level. Not saying someone intentionally exploiting the car isn't also at fault, but I also don't think it's unrealistic to hold the manufacturer accountable as well.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#143

Post by fastball »

otherwiseguy wrote: post #123
nexuist wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying that investing in asphalt is pointless when horses can walk on dirt or cobble. The fact of the matter is that building new public transport is monumentally expensive, but roads themselves already exist. Installing new sensors and beacons would certainly not be a cheap task, but the bulk of the work is already done and there's no reason why these new systems couldn't integrate with existing roads t…

Is public transportation really monumentally expensive when compared to almost every adult spending somewhere between $5,000 and $150,000 every 5-10 years on a car? AAA says the average American spends nearly $9k/year owning/operating a vehicle. That'd buy a lot of public transportation infrastructure.

Right, but in return those Americans are getting transportation that actually takes them from point A to point B directly.

It's very hard to really gauge the impact this has on human productivity, especially given that in public transit you don't need to control your vehicle and so can be doing something else (although from my anecdotal experience, the vast majority of public transiters are doing nothing productive or interesting on their commutes).

But then there is also that, when a global pandemic happens and localities lockdown public transit, people with cars can still go places (like a National Park).

Point being, the problem is absolutely not one-dimensional and so just comparing aggregate expense is not very useful at all.

I think the goal for transport should be to maximize human productivity and mobility, and given the above and other realities, that almost always means a strong hybrid approach, not one where you relegate cars to a lesser status.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#144

Post by hellotomyrars »

accurrent wrote: post #63
mattbee wrote: post #20

This is clever, and Tesla's software is awful, but anyone doing this for real, with intent to divert cars from the road etc. would be committing a pretty serious crime.

To be fair I think autonomous vehicles should have a requirement that they come with a RADAR or LIDAR as a backup sensor (even if its a low resolution one). Using ML on images for everything is not going to solve your safety problems cause theres no way to gaurantee the system will not crashed when presented with a fake input. Its a darn sight harder to pretend to be farther away on a radar or lidar though. At the ve…

As far as I know most people working in the space still think that way, with the very notable exception of Tesla.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#145

Post by morpheuskafka »

I think the concept of the line of death, from browser security UI design, is relevant here. The space outside of the highway right of way is completely uncontrolled and the Tesla should know better than to look at a billboard hundreds of feet up in the air for regulatory signs. The MUTCD has rules about where signs are to be placed--look only in those places.

[1] https://textslashplain.com/2017/01/14/the-line-of-death/

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#146

Post by piracy1 »

mattbee wrote: post #53
falcolas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, from TFA: "They're also so fleeting that they're difficult for the human eye to detect, and leave behind very little evidence." We've already got people who do things purely for the lulz (swatting, anybody) who could easily justify away these kinds of activities.

Both good points - so this kind of crime would likely be indistinguishable from a random, terrifying software failure, with the blame falling on the car maker.

Tesla logs so much data and stores it and has used it to defend itself in various legal / PR matters. I wonder if they would catch it if someone did this. Or maybe suddenly they wouldn't have that data lol

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#148

Post by quickthrower2 »

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #24
mattbee wrote: post #20

This is clever, and Tesla's software is awful, but anyone doing this for real, with intent to divert cars from the road etc. would be committing a pretty serious crime.

The wonderful thing about IoT is the criminal can be on the other side of the world with no chance of any justice coming to them.

Low chance of any justice.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#149

Post by mhh__ »

InitialLastName wrote: post #89
tinus_hn wrote: post #6

Clever but don’t forget you can also ‘hack’ human drivers by showing flashing patterns or just generally distracting them.

Just because Tesla isn't very good at making cars that drive themselves doesn't mean that humans are any better at driving those cars.

I think it's fairly obvious that the humans are better in this particular circumstance.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#150

Post by onion2k »

mattbee wrote: post #20

This is clever, and Tesla's software is awful, but anyone doing this for real, with intent to divert cars from the road etc. would be committing a pretty serious crime.

Maybe Lucid will an advert that deliberately makes Teslas stop in front of it.
Post reply on HN