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Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

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Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#61
post #14
post #2

States just need to start mandating LIDAR for any level of autonomous certification, in the same way we finally figured out seatbelts were the minimum level of safety for passenger retention.

Tesla cars are far from being autonomous. Autopilot (including the so called "full self driving") is level 2, meaning that the driver has to pay attention at all times. From a driver responsibility point of view, it is a fancy cruise control, there is no question about autonomous certification because the car isn't autonomous. If one day, Tesla thinks it is OK for drivers not to pay attention and wants to make it leg…

This day came and passed years ago. It's evident from their marketing that there is no attempt to discern fancy cruise control from "zomfg your car will drive you around in a year!!"

Whether this is false advertising or even just moral is up in the air, but Tesla is making no attempts at educating consumers about the limits of their autonomy other than the bare minimum (yeah you technically have to keep both hands on the wheel, but that mechanism is easily defeated and you can even buy clips on Amazon that do it for you). I'm pretty sure Elon even liked a tweet about a Pornhub video where someone banged a model on the highway with autopilot. Which is an excellent day for PR and a disastrous day for legal.

The point being, sure, academically they are a far way away, but they are trying to convince consumers Level 5 is just around the corner.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#62
post #16
post #2

States just need to start mandating LIDAR for any level of autonomous certification, in the same way we finally figured out seatbelts were the minimum level of safety for passenger retention.

Why? Cameras can work just as well as your vision. Humans manage just fine and don't have LIDAR. Just because it causes the cars to slow down now doesn't mean it will in the future.

Cameras lack depth perception, which the brain very cunningly provides for humans at no additional cost.

Humans do get very clunky and slow when that depth perception is taken away. One example is night vision goggles which basically just project a flat screen onto your eyeballs. Many people report that they become susceptible to tripping, falling, hitting objects, or just straight up walking into trees with NVGs, in part because the loss of depth perception takes such a toll on their brain that they can't adapt in time. It takes hours if not days to fully adapt to NVGs, and even then you can't operate as quickly as you can in daylight unless you practice consistently (think SWAT or Navy Seals type training).

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#63
post #20

This is clever, and Tesla's software is awful, but anyone doing this for real, with intent to divert cars from the road etc. would be committing a pretty serious crime.

To be fair I think autonomous vehicles should have a requirement that they come with a RADAR or LIDAR as a backup sensor (even if its a low resolution one). Using ML on images for everything is not going to solve your safety problems cause theres no way to gaurantee the system will not crashed when presented with a fake input. Its a darn sight harder to pretend to be farther away on a radar or lidar though. At the very least the autonomous vehicle should be able to gaurantee you don't crash into static obstacles.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always map the stop signs in advance

Which would fail in the case of construction workers holding up stop signs or school buses deploying stop signs, to cite just two examples.

It's actually comical in a way that we possess the technology to build robots that can operate heavy machinery and practically interpret the world the same way we do, but we still have to worry about people holding up plastic signs.

It makes me think that the first real wide scale self driving vehicle deployment will have to come from a nation state rather than a corporation; the easiest way to solve all of these problems is by putting heavy investments into smart road infrastructure such that the car depends on sensors embedded in the signs or the asphalt rather than any camera feed. A school bus could just have a transmitter to indicate whether its lights are on or not; construction workers could be given road signs that transmit similar signals or better yet use a portal to construct a virtual geofence around wherever the construction is happening before it begins. These are all easily solvable problems in today's world; what is missing is the political capital to invest in these solutions despite the insane ROI.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wonderful thing about IoT is the criminal can be on the other side of the world with no chance of any justice coming to them.

How long until someone claims one of these images designed to cause trouble for AIs is free speech? And are they right?

Id say no to the free speech since that sounds similar to shouting fire in a movie theater

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#66
post #6

Clever but don’t forget you can also ‘hack’ human drivers by showing flashing patterns or just generally distracting them.

It's so easy all you have to do is shine lasers at their eyeballs and it bricks the car!

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#68

Why don't we build some experimental infrastructure that is designed specifically for self driving vehicles?

Having to invest is specialized infrastructure for self-driving cars defeats the whole point of them. Any money spent on infrastructure for self-driving cars would be better spent on public transportation.

This is like saying that investing in asphalt is pointless when horses can walk on dirt or cobble. The fact of the matter is that building new public transport is monumentally expensive, but roads themselves already exist. Installing new sensors and beacons would certainly not be a cheap task, but the bulk of the work is already done and there's no reason why these new systems couldn't integrate with existing roads that humans drive on. You can imagine for example a speed limit sign with a QR code containing information for the car to read, or a stop light using a radio transmitter to indicate its state. This infrastructure has to be upgraded anyways; why not make it friendlier for computers to use it? The costs pay themselves when crashes and traffic jams go away.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#69

Why don't we build some experimental infrastructure that is designed specifically for self driving vehicles?

Like this?

The rise of AV testbed cities

https://www.axios.com/autonomous-vehicles-japan-china-testbe...

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#70
post #62
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Cameras can work just as well as your vision. Humans manage just fine and don't have LIDAR. Just because it causes the cars to slow down now doesn't mean it will in the future.

Cameras lack depth perception, which the brain very cunningly provides for humans at no additional cost. Humans do get very clunky and slow when that depth perception is taken away. One example is night vision goggles which basically just project a flat screen onto your eyeballs. Many people report that they become susceptible to tripping, falling, hitting objects, or just straight up walking into trees with NVGs, in…

> Cameras lack depth perception,

Cameras lack any perception; perception is a function of brains.

But a single camera with appropriate processing can provide a wide array of depth cues (stereoscopy adds more.)

> Many people report that they become susceptible to tripping, falling, hitting objects, or just straight up walking into trees with NVGs, in part because the loss of depth perception takes such a toll on their brain that they can't adapt in time.

While loss of depth cues plays some role here, a much bigger factor, AIUI, is the narrow field of view. “Panoramic” NVGs have around 100° horizontal and 40° vertical field of view (non-panoramic NVGs often have around a 40° horizontal FoV), people have around (with eye but not head movement) a 210° horizontal and 120° vertical field of view. Looking directly ahead with even panoramic NVGs as you normally would without them, you literally cannot see lots of things, especially tripping hazards, and objects to your sides that you might laterally move into to avoid the things you can see in front of you.

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