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Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

newsweek.com

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Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#41

Post by MauranKilom »

klyrs wrote: post #12
dheera wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> projector at the ground in front of a Tesla and it crosses into oncoming traffic I don't understand why people come up with all these ridiculous "what if" ideas against autonomous cars as if it's anything new. It's already exceedingly easy to foul up a human driver. Stand next to a freeway and hold up a stop sign. Drop a foam mannequin from a bridge over the road. Paint some bogus lane lines. Shine a laser at their…

I'd stop in most of those situations. Except for the bogus painted lines -- I'd see that they were trying to direct me into oncoming traffic and respond accordingly. The panel van (or drone) attack is highly targeted, and doesn't stick around like paint does. These aren't just "ridiculous what ifs," they're a rather plausible method for freshly unemployed Luddites.

Do you see anyone going around with a massive LED array on the back of their trucks to blind (targeted) human drivers? Because that's even easier than floating around a panel with a specially crafted video feed. Yet I've never heard someone do it.

Sure, leading a self-driving car astray is more of an accomplishment than blinding a human, but comparing crimes by how entertaining they are to a bored unemployed DIY sociopath does not seem very reasonable to me.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#42

Post by pskinner »

colinmhayes wrote: post #38
smallstepforman wrote: post #35

There are many reasons why I dont believe in self driving cars, the first (and strongest) is to imagine that the software was written by my collegues (and myself).

I mean in that case imagine these people being allowed to drive. There's no reason computers can't be better than people, and many reasons they could be better.

Being able to drive safely is not the same skill as being able to construct a system that can drive safely.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#43

Post by JKCalhoun »

smallstepforman wrote: post #35

There are many reasons why I dont believe in self driving cars, the first (and strongest) is to imagine that the software was written by my collegues (and myself).

I sort of find the idea of self-driving cars as ... selfish?

Don't want to drive, take the bus.

The idea that we all need our personal chariots (and now robotic chauffeurs) seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility.

And, yes, I am guilty of owning a car myself and feel guilt about it. But for some reason the self-driving bit just seems to take it to another level for me. Maybe too there's an air of elitism about it since we are in fact talking about cars that cost what most people make in an entire year.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#44

Post by dwohnitmok »

brianwawok wrote: post #36
ianmobbs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LIDAR maps out the world around you in three dimensions, so with that data, there's no way it would mistake "a 'Stop' sign hidden within a fast food commercial [...] only flashing on-screen for a fraction of a second" (article) for an actual stop sign

But it would fall for a cardboard stop sign on a stick held up by a troublemaker.

As would a human given a sufficiently official-looking stop sign. In fact I think it's actually impossible for an automated car or human without figuring out the "troublemaker"'s identity whether the stop sign is fake or not. And it's not always possible to pin down someone's identity (if the person is wearing a brightly colored construction vest what do you do?).

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#45

Post by throwaway2048 »

roughly wrote: post #30
dawnerd wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Cameras can work just as well as your vision. Humans manage just fine and don't have LIDAR. Just because it causes the cars to slow down now doesn't mean it will in the future.

Your vision is backed by a neural network with around 80 billion neurons implementing a general learning and intelligence model we don't have the first clue how to replicate. We're a bit further away from "Cameras working just as well as your vision" than I think you're anticipating.

Also your eyes are far better at quickly adapting to things like wild changes in brightness and contrast than any camera

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#46

Post by gruez »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #43
smallstepforman wrote: post #35

There are many reasons why I dont believe in self driving cars, the first (and strongest) is to imagine that the software was written by my collegues (and myself).

I sort of find the idea of self-driving cars as ... selfish? Don't want to drive, take the bus. The idea that we all need our personal chariots (and now robotic chauffeurs) seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility. And, yes, I am guilty of owning a car myself and feel guilt about it. But for some reason the self-driving bit just seems to take it to another level for me. Maybe too there's an air of elitism abo…

But what if self-driving cars were 10x safer than human-driven cars? Seems like your issue is with the personal vehicle bit, not the self driving bit.

>Don't want to drive, take the bus.

And what if my area has shitty bus service?

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#47

Post by contravariant »

ianmobbs wrote: post #18
contravariant wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is LIDAR not susceptible to this? I guess it might be more robust against random hiccoughs (though I have no basis for this whatsoever), but is it also protected against malice?

LIDAR maps out the world around you in three dimensions, so with that data, there's no way it would mistake "a 'Stop' sign hidden within a fast food commercial [...] only flashing on-screen for a fraction of a second" (article) for an actual stop sign

Well it probably would stop working if you confuse it with a whole bunch of confetti of reflective material or similar. Although I suppose that would work against humans as well.

Still I wonder if it has failure modes that humans lack, which could result in situations where it does inexplicable things.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#48

Post by glaucon »

mike_d wrote: post #2

States just need to start mandating LIDAR for any level of autonomous certification, in the same way we finally figured out seatbelts were the minimum level of safety for passenger retention.

Not being sarcastic but how would LIDAR help here ?

Maybe .... before acting on a Stop sign sensed by the cameras the control system would confirm, via LIDAR, there is a post with a plate mounted on it in a position which corresponds to where the camera thought it saw a Stop sign ?

Can LIDAR do that level of sensing, ie unambiguously find a metal post/plate out of all the other stuff which might be in front of the car ?

And assuming my guess about how LIDAR would help is correct what happens when an obstruction between the car and the Stop sign means that LIDAR can't 'see' the post but the cameras can see the sign ?

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#49

Post by falcolas »

colinmhayes wrote: post #38
smallstepforman wrote: post #35

There are many reasons why I dont believe in self driving cars, the first (and strongest) is to imagine that the software was written by my collegues (and myself).

I mean in that case imagine these people being allowed to drive. There's no reason computers can't be better than people, and many reasons they could be better.

> There's no reason computers can't be better than people

It is entirely possible, however, that the computers and software systems available today can't be better than humans.

Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop

#50

Post by dheera »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #43
smallstepforman wrote: post #35

There are many reasons why I dont believe in self driving cars, the first (and strongest) is to imagine that the software was written by my collegues (and myself).

I sort of find the idea of self-driving cars as ... selfish? Don't want to drive, take the bus. The idea that we all need our personal chariots (and now robotic chauffeurs) seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility. And, yes, I am guilty of owning a car myself and feel guilt about it. But for some reason the self-driving bit just seems to take it to another level for me. Maybe too there's an air of elitism abo…

Self-driving cars is not just about not wanting to drive.

It's also about enabling Uber-style intelligent carpooling so that you can save energy while still maintaining similar times to driving, especially in places with poor or non-existent public transportation.

It's also about reducing the number of cars in the world. You probably use your car for less than 5% of your life. Most of the time it just sits there taking up space. Why do you need to own it? Imagine a world where you didn't need to own, maintain, or park. We can reclaim parking lots and plant trees, build housing, or other things. We can also reclaim a lot of our time spent in traffic jams or looking for parking and do something more useful with it.

It's also about enabling people who are unfit to drive to have a better quality of life. What if you've had a little to drink? What if you're down with a fever and a headache and can't concentrate on the road? What if you're sleepy? What if you are prone to seizures? What if you're blind, deaf, have poor motor skills? What if you're a visitor to an area without a public transportation system and not confident renting a car and driving?

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