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ReactOS

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Re: ReactOS

#51

I just realized - what does the Google vs Oracle ruling mean for ReactOS, and also Wine?

We don't know. There are several substantiative questions of law and both parties' inability to give the court a clear picture of what an API is may result in the case not actually being decided.

There's two questions up in the air with the case:

1. Whether or not you can claim copyright over the name of a function plus the combination of it's input types (an "API"). 2. Whether or not copying APIs can constitute fair use in the context of building a new platform using an existing language.

The first one is likely the case generally; you can claim ownership over "structure, sequence, and organization" just as well as Flame can claim ownership over a descending minor ostanato with a specific timbre. Imagine if Microsoft decided to do an end run around the GPL by copying all of Linux's header files and just writing new implementations. (Wait, isn't that how we got BSD?) This is sort of like the computer science equivalent of tracing over someone else's art, and we probably should have some protection to prevent that.

However, Java's APIs aren't just internal implementation details. They were made public to other developers specifically so that they would write programs that used them. Google argues that this makes them "methods of operation", which can't be copyrighted. If Microsoft makes Microsoft Excel accept macros from LibreOffice Calc by copying their menu bar shortcuts, that isn't protected and Microsoft is free to do that. (This has been adjudicated in court back in the 80s and is relevant precedent for the SCOTUS case.)

The fair use question is a fallback argument if the court rules that copyright ownership applies to API declarations. This requires application of a four-factors test. Notably, Google argued that Android needed to be compatible with Java APIs, and that such activities should be fair use. Oracle counters that Android's implementation of those APIs were out of date and incompatible, so that fair use shouldn't apply.

This also means that the Google/Oracle case might be ruled so narrowly that it doesn't affect WINE or ReactOS, or it could allow one and prohibit the other. After all, WINE is very narrowly focused on making Windows programs run on Linux, while ReactOS is trying to replace Windows entirely. One of the four fair use factors is the "market usurpation factor": what happens to the market for licenses if we allow people to do this under fair use and not pay for a license. If Win32 declarations can be considered copyrighted, then we could run into a situation where WINE using them to run Windows apps on Linux is NOT usurpation, but ReactOS using them to rewrite Windows IS.

Not to mention GNU was made in the same way as ReactOS, but against UNIX rather than Windows. I have no idea if the people who own the corpse of the people who bought out Novell would be able to assert a copyright claim, though, as most UNIX APIs were standardized under POSIX. Android also largely doesn't use those APIs (just the Linux kernel itself) and they'd be ironically safe from an SCO-style attack in this scenario.

Full disclosure: I am one of the developers of Ruffle (Free Software WASM/Rust Flash Player reimplementation) and I'm extremely paranoid of the project getting shut down by Adobe or HARMAN (the latter bought Adobe AIR). Ergo, I very much have material interest in the outcome of this case.

Re: ReactOS

#52

This looks cool, how can I get involved helping with this project? I'm a full stack web app developer but I've never worked on an OS before (I'm self-taught). I don't really know where to start.

before you get involved and put your name on it take a look at this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20341022

former MS kernel engineer saying that in no way is is possible its not using stolen MS code.

Re: ReactOS

#53

I just realized - what does the Google vs Oracle ruling mean for ReactOS, and also Wine?

The lack of commercial purpose of ReactOS (and Wine) and it's primary goal of interoperability, plus the fact that it doesn't really damage the value of the original Windows platform, means it's probably a very easy case of fair use. Android isn't fair use, is a massive commercial endeavour, and has obliterated the value of mobile Java, while breaking interoperability with Java. Oracle winning the case will not be ki…

One could also claim the opposite: Android has massively boosted the Java ecosystem and given it new life. So many people are learning Oracle's language now thanks to Android.

Re: ReactOS

#54
post #39
post #19

I'm saddened a little bit to see stuff like theming has been built. I was hoping that ReactOS would stick with the Windows 2000 look and feel. I also think that with the limited resources they have, the project team would be better focusing on improving compatibility, over shiny desktop effects. That said... I firmly believe there is a place for ReactOS. Eventually, XP will fail to run on new hardware, and when that…

> else we'll endlessly repeat ourselves rewriting the same programs over and over again Doing this is ok. We are also rewriting the same books all over again. Knowledge is forgotten and reinvented and rediscovered. You see this in computer science and programming all the time, but also in other fields. Rather than the programs themselves, preserving the concepts and learnings is much more important. Don’t get me wron…

Knowledge being lost and reinvented is a bug, not a feature. Some lessons have been paid-for in blood (like the Therac 25, if you're looking at software development). There is value in understanding how things work and what knowledge came from specific lessons, but starting over again simply invites making the same mistakes all over. I wish we could aspire to be better than that.

Re: ReactOS

#55
post #19

I'm saddened a little bit to see stuff like theming has been built. I was hoping that ReactOS would stick with the Windows 2000 look and feel. I also think that with the limited resources they have, the project team would be better focusing on improving compatibility, over shiny desktop effects. That said... I firmly believe there is a place for ReactOS. Eventually, XP will fail to run on new hardware, and when that…

[deleted]

Re: ReactOS

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think there'd still be a place for mobile Java now in the absence of Android? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

The state of the market today isn't the point: It obliterated mobile Java when Google infringed. Your question actually reinforces Oracle's claim that they were irreparably harmed by Google's infringement; there's no way to undo what has been done, and substantial damage compensation is necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#U.S._fair_use_factors is a really good read for the basic understanding of how fai…

There would be no Java on smartphone with Windows Phone and Apple. Java ME was not much even before Android, Symbian overshadowed it. Mobile developers were predisposed "What? Java? Ah, Java SE, maybe ok then"

Re: ReactOS

#57
post #19

I'm saddened a little bit to see stuff like theming has been built. I was hoping that ReactOS would stick with the Windows 2000 look and feel. I also think that with the limited resources they have, the project team would be better focusing on improving compatibility, over shiny desktop effects. That said... I firmly believe there is a place for ReactOS. Eventually, XP will fail to run on new hardware, and when that…

It's really saddening if you've been following the project for years. They had some good progress back when the Russian government got interested in ReactOS, but lately they seem to just be doing webdev stuff not directly related to improving ReactOS. To the ReactOS devs: what's the deal with the last couple years of GSOC projects? Why is there little to no work going on to improve compatibilty?

>To the ReactOS devs: what's the deal with the last couple years of GSOC projects? Why is there little to no work going on to improve compatibilty?

Why are you asking this here in the HN comments section? Maybe communicate directly to them through a means of contact on their page. Why "grill" them on their progress? Maybe go invest in the project yourself.

This just comes off as lazy criticisms. It's not like GSOC is your money, nor does Google "make it rain" with their stipend.

Re: ReactOS

#58
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of the market today isn't the point: It obliterated mobile Java when Google infringed. Your question actually reinforces Oracle's claim that they were irreparably harmed by Google's infringement; there's no way to undo what has been done, and substantial damage compensation is necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#U.S._fair_use_factors is a really good read for the basic understanding of how fai…

You don't need fair use for something that isn't copyright worthy like an API. It's like claiming you copied a book if the chapter headlines are identical.

> You don't need fair use for something that isn't copyright worthy like an API.

This is true. However, bear in mind, Google argued that 1. APIs weren't copyrightable and 2. that if they were, their usage was fair. In this ten year court nightmare, they've lost fair use and of course, are likely about to lose on copyrightability.

If the Supreme Court rules for Oracle, Android is copyright-infringing, it's already failed on the fair use claim. But most non-commercial projects would still have a fairly compelling case for fair use.

Note that your "copied a book" analogy is poor for a bunch of reasons: Chapter headlines... are copyrightable. (Though the "amount of work copied" is a fair use pillar, so it's possible to lift chapter headlines fairly.) And it fails to account for the functional nature of APIs which is under debate for copyrightability.

Re: ReactOS

#59
post #32
post #19

I'm saddened a little bit to see stuff like theming has been built. I was hoping that ReactOS would stick with the Windows 2000 look and feel. I also think that with the limited resources they have, the project team would be better focusing on improving compatibility, over shiny desktop effects. That said... I firmly believe there is a place for ReactOS. Eventually, XP will fail to run on new hardware, and when that…

Maybe the people who did the theming stuff aren't the ones that would working on compatibility issues. Thats usually the case in company driven projects but not necessarily in community driven open source projects. If you would be the project lead and a person comes to you and tells you that he would like to create a newer modern theme. If you tell him/her no and that he/she should work on something completely differ…

I would be way more comfortable hacking on that than debugging some arcane undocumented Windows internals

Re: ReactOS

#60

I just realized - what does the Google vs Oracle ruling mean for ReactOS, and also Wine?

We don't know. There are several substantiative questions of law and both parties' inability to give the court a clear picture of what an API is may result in the case not actually being decided. There's two questions up in the air with the case: 1. Whether or not you can claim copyright over the name of a function plus the combination of it's input types (an "API"). 2. Whether or not copying APIs can constitute fair…

> They were made public to other developers specifically so that they would write programs that used them.

Same could be applied to any public interface. Header files, system calls, standard library, hardware version, language version, network interface.

Linux and WINE replaces Windows entirely. Looks like a lot of fans wait exactly that, not ReactOS.

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