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Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

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Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr Ramani is pretty awesome, but all her views are heavily skewed towards narcissism and it's dangers, rightfully so, since people seem to underestimate that trait. It all depends how you define charisma. If it's "larger than life" it can be and is often abused, if it's "easy to be around and suave" that comes closer to what I would think charisma is.

The difference between charisma and narcissism may be in the eye of the beholder. However, I can think of a few people in my life that are personable and incredibly genuine; the kind of person that seems to draw the best out in others. I wouldn't be happy to hear them described as narcissistic.

The thing is narcissism in and of itself is not necessarily negative. We're all the stars of our own shows/lives.

Some people want attention and do all the right things to get it: pursue the right goals, get people together to do stuff that's good for humanity. You'd better believe that many people whom we view very positively might have been narcissists: Ghandi, Mother Teresa, etc. But the difference is they did GOOD things to get the attention and power they thought they deserved.

I think it has to do with the values you absorb as a very young person. We all have a drive for attention, for power, for comfort, for security. For some the drive, and the talent or "charisma" to achieve those goals is higher.

The decisions made along the way, the considerations of the side effects, and what you DO with that power are what distinguish people like Donald Trump and Hitler from people like Barack Obama and Nelson Mandela. And let's not get it wrong; even the latter two have a few spots on their records. No one is perfect.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr Ramani is pretty awesome, but all her views are heavily skewed towards narcissism and it's dangers, rightfully so, since people seem to underestimate that trait. It all depends how you define charisma. If it's "larger than life" it can be and is often abused, if it's "easy to be around and suave" that comes closer to what I would think charisma is.

The difference between charisma and narcissism may be in the eye of the beholder. However, I can think of a few people in my life that are personable and incredibly genuine; the kind of person that seems to draw the best out in others. I wouldn't be happy to hear them described as narcissistic.

Narcissism is charisma + these behaviors:

- lack of empathy - entitlement to special treatment - superficial - constantly seeking validation and admiration - manipulative, exploitative, lying

Note that covert/vulnerable narcissists are mostly like that but they trade charm for a ton of passive-aggressive behaviors and snide remarks. Charisma is the favorite tool of classic, grandiose narcissists.

https://youtu.be/4qbam9R6BOo?t=87

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#23
As I get older, my theory of charisma is that it's a product, more than it is an innate trait, and that anyone can "become charismatic", although 99.9 percent of people never will, and the worst thing you can do for yourself is try. People seem superhuman-- energetic, brilliant, capable-- when surrounded by people who invest themselves entirely in making them seem so. Steve Jobs had no special social acumen, above-average but not genius-level intelligence, and no more hours in his day than the 24 we all have, but he managed to surround himself with the right people and, for a period of about 20 years, managed to convince the world that he had superhuman powers and a "reality distortion field" when in reality he was just a capitalist who dropped acid once.

Plenty of charismatic people are socially inept, charmless, and unpleasant in close interpersonal relationships, but this doesn't make them any less charismatic on a stage. They often have no genuine friends, but tens or hundreds or thousands of people who will put aside their own concerns to do things for the charismatic individual.

Charisma is a pattern by which other people, for reasons that are hard to parse, and through mechanisms that are invisible, do things for the charismatic person. A charismatic person is threatening because others will kill for him, and he's a desirable benefactor because others will commit resources to his causes, but it seems to be a self-perpetuating phenomenon that snowballs and can carry on for most of a lifetime. It does seem to collapse in old age. This is why charismatic but hideous people like Harvey Weinstein, Donald Trump, and Bill Cosby meet such ignominious ends. They're invincible, until they're not.

There are skills that enhance a person's charisma. You can learn rhetoric, public speaking, and the norms of social interaction. But that's all they are: skills. Nothing can guarantee charisma. Nothing can guarantee that you'll get that core set of people to follow you that will produce a snowball effect. On that, it seems to be pretty random who wins and who doesn't.

Charisma exists because people want to be the charismatic person. They want to be someone who can wave a hand and bring ruin to their enemies. What they don't realize is that by following the charismatic, they're defeating their own purpose. It is not traits of the charismatic that generate this feedback loop. It is mostly just luck. That said, the way to improve one's odds to find people who are looking for a charismatic to follow, which means finding new territory, rather than hanging around an existing charismatic in a space where such people are already spoken-for.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between charisma and narcissism may be in the eye of the beholder. However, I can think of a few people in my life that are personable and incredibly genuine; the kind of person that seems to draw the best out in others. I wouldn't be happy to hear them described as narcissistic.

The thing is narcissism in and of itself is not necessarily negative. We're all the stars of our own shows/lives. Some people want attention and do all the right things to get it: pursue the right goals, get people together to do stuff that's good for humanity. You'd better believe that many people whom we view very positively might have been narcissists: Ghandi, Mother Teresa, etc. But the difference is they did GOO…

"It's almost like saying 'This is a safe drunk driver'" Ramani's video on 'healthy narcissism', 10:28 https://youtu.be/QiQCsrWtUNo?t=46

She also has a video on "communal narcissists" - a breed of narcissists on a mission to help people that are very careful about documenting every single thing they do. Upon closer inspection, it turns out many people do good things only to be in spotlight and are mean to people close to them, including assistants who work for their success. She says whether it's worth it for the society in the end is a philosophical question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8fiHTbGtY

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#25
post #20

There is a saying that, "all political careers end in failure," which references this aspect of charisma where you have it - until you don't. It is an example of what happens when you fail a test of charisma, where you never really get it back in that particular relationship to those people. I read Olivia Fox-Cabane's work on charisma (Charisma Myth) and she showed how it can be a set of attributes you can practice.…

Let’s not forget charismatic (but ultimately unsympathetic) leaders like Castro and the Che. They were by any measure charismatic. They leveraged that to further their visions to an end. But, not all charismatic people use their charisma for the bad. Some use it to form friendships and to climb social ladders, some to be productive in their role (salespeople), etc. For some people it comes naturally. For some it’s fo…

I think your opinion on Castro or Che depends on perspective. Cuba was relatively successful until the decline of the Soviet Union by most measures — but when the neighboring superpower embargoes you because your political system is seen as an existential threat to the ruling class, it’s hard to close the gap. To classify them as objectively “bad” would mean doing the same to most US presidents. From the outside, all of our modern presidents have done some horrific things.

A big part of why the Cuban revolution is viewed negatively in the US is that the Cubans were sick of their island being totally owned as a playground for the rich in another country — things were objectively better for most Cubans in the years after the revolution. So Americans and wealthy Cubans were largely the early losers in the revolution, and wanted to punish the country for having the nerve to seize back the land. The embargo really killed their ability to build an economy, which led to a lot of poverty and was largely outside the control of the Cuban government.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#26
post #16
post #4

As far as I'm concerned charisma is like heavy perfume or cologne that someone wears when they don't take a shower. It's probably covering something else. -- dr Ramani Durvasula, licensed clinical psychologist https://youtu.be/8EqSlSPHjR0?t=195

That's absolutely outstanding. You do occasionally find people who are all of very charismatic, honest, and substantive, but it's rare. Usually charisma is used to sell bullshit of one form or another. In my experience extreme charisma is a strong contrarian indicator.

Charisma, and physical beauty, give people power over you. And we know power corrupts. Few can resist the temptation! Few are conscious enough to know they're getting preferential treatment. It doesn't have to be on purpose, it can start as a snowballing habit.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#27

There is a saying that, "all political careers end in failure," which references this aspect of charisma where you have it - until you don't. It is an example of what happens when you fail a test of charisma, where you never really get it back in that particular relationship to those people. I read Olivia Fox-Cabane's work on charisma (Charisma Myth) and she showed how it can be a set of attributes you can practice.…

Thank you for the pointer to Fox-Cabane. I'm going to read that.

I've thought a lot about charisma in the context of actors. People are drawn to certain actors for reasons that are hard to pin down. It's most explicit in film action heroes. They're often not the most attractive men and they're rarely good actors, but people will go see a Sylvester Stallone or Arnold Schwartzenegger film even after a long string of flops. They are certainly full of the "presence" and "power" part of Fox-Cabane's thesis, even if not the "warmth".

I most want to know more about the "presence" aspect. I'm certain it can be taught, but I don't entirely know how. I do think it ties in with another thing I've observed, that many of the most charismatic film actors have experience on stage, especially the UK stage. I believe it has to do with the way stage forces an actor to draw your eyes, where a film actor has a camera telling an audience where to look. I still don't entirely know what it is they're doing. Fox-Cabane may have ides.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the bits you listed, then had to scan back to figure out what "RWA" means. Correct me if I am wrong, but this book seems to have recycled the ridiculous Theodore Adorno/Frankfurt school nonsense pathologizing Christian Western civilization. The entire idea that people who go to church on Sundays and have world-normal psychological responses, rather than the defective WEIRD[0] emotional pattern that literally o…

Adorno sounds familiar, so you're probably right about the source influence. I recall RWA being distinct from "people who go to church on Sundays and have world-normal psychological responses", so I'll check that later and leave it here in an edit. Agreed on the middle east situation, but I've written elsewhere on HN about the catch-22 that I believe has produced a Baptists and Bootleggers dynamic in what Orwell woul…

It feels weird that they'd pay any attention to the 100 midpoint. These questions feel like they're written to make the authoritarians look unreasonable. Which I feel they are, too, but the way it's written the only way to give the more authoritarian answer would be to be either truly delusional or performing as if one were.

That doesn't mean it's useless, but it does mean that the midpoint is arbitrary. If nobody scores above 100 it says more about your test than it does about people.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#29

There is a saying that, "all political careers end in failure," which references this aspect of charisma where you have it - until you don't. It is an example of what happens when you fail a test of charisma, where you never really get it back in that particular relationship to those people. I read Olivia Fox-Cabane's work on charisma (Charisma Myth) and she showed how it can be a set of attributes you can practice.…

Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus is the type specimen for how to avoid having a political career end in (martyrdom or) failure.

Re: Charisma: Now You’ve Got It, Now You Don’t

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr Ramani is pretty awesome, but all her views are heavily skewed towards narcissism and it's dangers, rightfully so, since people seem to underestimate that trait. It all depends how you define charisma. If it's "larger than life" it can be and is often abused, if it's "easy to be around and suave" that comes closer to what I would think charisma is.

I liked Ramani until I realized that every other day she posts videos where she repeats the same material she's covered countless times in the past. I became convinced that you could watch her whole YouTube channel and conclude that everyone around you is a narcissist. This isn't to say that she hasn't made lots of good and valid content, but I find it ironic that she uses her own apparent charisma to exploit a topic…

I think she just focused on narcissism for a whole month, as well as it being somewhat of a specialty of hers. It's also a pretty big Youtube niche. If you watch the Med Circle content she is pretty succinct and well versed on other mental health issues as well.
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