Re-Thinking the Desktop OS • Hacker News Board

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#151

Post by 3np » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:45 AM UTC

Tainnor wrote: post #121

rtpg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some mobile concepts that I miss on OS: - not thinking about files: I can open Notes/Drafts on my phone and get a textbox. I kinda get this with Joplin, barely. - Real sandboxing, with a nice permission layer - Extremely easy sharing of data between apps. Of course files are theoretically a great sharing mechanism, but the sharing mechanism in mobile OS's are the logical conclusion of the clipboard - URIs th…

The "no files" part of mobile OSs is the worst part for me personally. I constantly re-download the same PDFs, have to look forever for "that particular picture", etc., because even though you can technically access the file system on Android it's not like the majority of apps supports a file manager interface, and many apps just dump their file somewhere without explicit structure, so I basically never find what I n…

Also if you want to do anything beyond “what the devs already thought about” you either need deep understanding of the specific system/app or rounds of trial and error.

Case in point: tried sharing a vpn config with an Android user over Signal. They couldn’t do anything with the file, just yielding an error message saying it was unsupported. Sending the exact same file with a .pdf extension allowed them to download it and import it in their VPN app (only after downloading and installing a generic file manager app, though).

Every now and then I struggle with some file that I can’t figure out how to move between apps. Something as seemingly simple as downloading an mp3 file from a browser and importing it to a music player app is quite an ordeal on iOS.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#152

Post by _where » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:55 AM UTC

taeric wrote: post #28

I want less in the "lets make the desktop good" vein, and more in the "lets stop making the desktop crap" vein. Things that seem to be making things worse, ironically, are all things that ostensibly are there to make them better. Web technologies, I'm mainly looking at you.

Definitely. Windows got worse after XP, mostly with 8. Why did they move things around and setup multiple ways of doing things? Gnome got worse after v2, and what was Ubuntu thinking with ads? OSX/macOS/iOS got worse with flat design (which thankfully morphed) and AppStore and awful windows-style install nanny.

It’s not just the interface. iOS and macOS got embedded spyware years ago, and it’s still there; they can backdoor whenever. Dig through your logs and sometimes you’ll see output of a menu choice upon being connected to. Windows has similar from what I’ve read. I’m willing to give up some privacy, but it seems like B.S. to make people pay for things that do that in such a hidden way. It leaves things exposed. Unfortunately, the desktop OS alone is not enough for security either. Hardware doesn’t lock down, with potential openings for instructions in multiple places in modern computers.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#153

Post by input_sh » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:57 AM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #52

LuvSauce wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind using Linux? It's been my experience that it's done everything I wanted it to well. Linux on desktop has changed. I hated it too in the 2000s. Now mostly everything just works, KDE can look and feel like any desktop including OSX. Very reliable. You'll find a pirated version of XP running as you wish soon since the leak of the XP source code not GPL though.

> Now mostly everything just works 'Mostly' is the key--and the problem. I've been using Elementary OS as a daily driver for at least a year, maybe two (and before that I used Mint for several years). For the most part (there's that pesky word again!), it works quite well. And it really is beautiful--aesthetically, I quite like it. But boy do I wish that bluetooth would work reliably. Since working at home full time,…

I'm in the same situation as you: work from home, own noise-cancelling Bluetooth headphones, use elementary OS.

Personally, the only problem I've ever had is when two devices are connected to my headphones (laptop and a phone). When a notification pops up on my phone, my headphones get "taken over" by the sound from my phone. I basically just turn off Bluetooth on my phone at that point (easier than disconnecting a device).

Minor annoyance for sure (especially because I have notifications turned on for like 3 apps on my phone), but I'm so used to elementary OS (using it since 0.2) that there's no way I can switch to anything else — Windows or another Linux distro — at this point.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#154

Post by anonymou2 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:59 AM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #143

II2II wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we usually discuss things in extremes. We don't need to know how to sew our own clothes, but knowing how to mend them is useful. Do we really want to live in a world where we toss out a shirt simply because a button falls off? We don't need to know how to build a home, but knowing how to fix simple problems is useful. Do we really want to live in a world where we have to call in an electrician eve…

It's not extremes. Modern society is designed so that we don't have to do any of those things (in extreme or even in between), we just throw money (that we generated doing one specific job) at our problems.

Then when that job is no longer needed by society you are really, really lost.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#155

Post by vetinari » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 12:03 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #105

wraptile wrote: post #65

Wow, I'm masively disappointed with this thread. We have so many different Desktop "OS's" already. There's hardly a need for a _revolution_; strong stability and support is needed but there's just no paying market for it by the looks of it. 4 biggest desktop environments are by mega corporations (apple, microsoft) and by big open-source collectives (Gnome, KDE). But is that it? No, there's also a bunch of tilling-win…

> Real question: Do we continue to dumb down software to exclusive casual usage for house-moms or we try to move our society to be more techn savy as we are clearly moving to a more tech relying world. Why shouldn't everyone know how to code? Why shouldn't everyone churn their own butter? Why shouldn't everyone sew their own clothes? Why shouldn't everyone build our own homes? Should we continue to dumb down feeding,…

> Why shouldn't everyone churn their own butter? Why shouldn't everyone sew their own clothes? Why shouldn't everyone build our own homes? Should we continue to dumb down feeding, clothing, and sheltering ourselves for exclusive casual usage of ?

Why shouldn't everyone read? Why shouldn't everyone write? Why shouldn't everyone do the basic math?

Being able to use computers efficiently is knowledge, not chores. To be able to use them as a bicycle for the mind goes way beyond pressing colored buttons according to emotion.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#156

Post by ksec » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 12:08 PM UTC

What would you add to your current Desktop OS though?

I am using macOS, yes there are few things I dont like, but generally speaking it is very very good. That is specifically the OS. Not MacBook the hardware ( which I increasingly hate... )

As a matter of fact I dont even remember what difference / new improvement they made in the past few macOS version. Other than instability and compatibility problems.

Safari needs lots of love. Stop dumping down Safari into iOS Safari. I use Desktop / PC for a reason.

As a matter of fact, I wish they would stop releasing new macOS every year for features. There is no need for that. Just do bug fix, library / API update and performance improvement.

Edit: Actually Text Layout is still crap, no one has solve text layout that takes writing Top to Bottom into account. That is including the Web Engine as well.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#157

Post by Jaruzel » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 12:09 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #102

nly wrote: post #93

For many years it's seemed pretty obvious to me that most people don't have a need for a laptop for 'real work', but could instead just drop their phones in to a slick little dock connected to a keyboard, mouse and a large touch screen. I believe this was the original vision behind Ubuntu Phone before it was pared-down and made boring. Completely wireless pairing would be even better. It seems like the hardware is go…

This literally what Samsung phones do right now. No need to wait for Apple to save you.

https://www.samsung.com/uk/apps/samsung-dex/

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#158

Post by fuzzfactor » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 12:12 PM UTC

LuvSauce wrote: post #38

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what in god's name are you talking about? Photo management? Image editing? Video editing? DAWs? Games? The browser itself? Compilers... static analysis tools ... a myriad of other native developer tools ? I could go on, but what on earth is the "everything" that no longer matters? If you had said "everyone's gone to mobile", well, that's a claim. But "everyone's gone to saas and browsers" ... that's not even wrong.

Imagine a computer without internet. It's way less useful. Everything that matters is online now. Pottering wants to get rid of /home on Linux for example. You can even do all that stuff online by SSHing a much better computer.

I want /home on my C: volume right along with my WINDOWS folder.

It would be good to be able to install Linux to FAT32 or NTFS too.

The Linux Live distributions run just fine from FAT32 or NTFS already.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#159

Post by buran77 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 12:14 PM UTC

wraptile wrote: post #138

raziel2p wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your metaphors work. There's a huge difference between knowing how to sew a button or flipping a circuit breaker and being able to code.

I didn't necessarily mean "learn to code" in such explicit manner with my original comment. More like learn technology itself and some strong basics of how everything works so people would be more equipped to grok this new world we're living in. To get a driver's license you need some basic knowledge of car internals. I'd argue that computers are infinitely more important in our society than a car yet majority of peo…

The problem is that we live in a world and society where you're expected to know a lot about a lot. And we just keep adding to the pile we need to learn. You need to know how to sew or mend your clothes, you need to know how to tinker with your electrical system or plumbing, with your car, with your electronics, know your stuff around a kitchen. And the list can really go on and on. Now you need to know how to code.

The computer equivalent of what most people know how to do around the house is clearing the browser cache, restarting a service, running something at startup, and other troubleshooting steps like this. Stuff that you learn in under a day just like you would when learning basic clothes mending, replacing a faucet, changing a tire or your oil, or cooking a meal.

Any reasonable definition of "coding" is creating something. Like building your own electronic circuit, mechanical part, simple clothes, etc. This is beyond what a normal person is expected to know about their stuff as general knowledge in life. Everyone should just understand the principles of the tools they're using and basic "under the hood" stuff to assist with basic troubleshooting.

In reality in the parts of the world with higher standards of living (can afford stuff) this piling up of expectations just lead people to give up and pay for services rather than learn all that. And for good reason, modern society has this bad habit of taking every shred of free time and complicating your life, with unfortunate consequences.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#160

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 12:18 PM UTC

Honestly I think a lot of ideas about where to go with Desktop OSs these days are just complexity fetishist slashfiction. I don't think we need new complicated paradigms, instead we should take a look at our history of what worked and what didn't and build based a simple combination of good ideas we already have.

My opinion, short version, hastily written, and incomplete:

1) Applications are self-contained objects that can be simply copied and deleted instead of installed and uninstalled. They should run from any location on any media. AppImage implements this in Linux and modern Mac application bundles are already this, but the concept goes back to almost the beginning of desktop computers.

2) Spacial file manager (MacOS), drag and drop saving (RiscOS), desktop and quick-launch menus are just views of a folder structures (Windows).

3) All applications in their own namespace and they only get access to what the user configures for them (do not do "allow/deny" popups!).

4) Everything scriptable and something like AutoHotKey built into the OS at a fundamental level.

5) Switchable "user profiles" instead of "user accounts", which are an artifact of giant shared computer systems. User profile just contains personalized settings and can be located anywhere, including removable media so you can take yours to other computers. If you want to keep things safe from others, encrypt them. Otherwise there are no permissions except those applied to applications themselves.

6) Sound and video should be routable like you see in DAWs. Plug outputs into inputs, add filters, split, mix, etc. This is of course scriptable so you can make it do what you want on arbitrary events.

7) Backwards compatibility should be a high priority, but accomplished via shim layers and/or emulation and/or vms when clean breaks are necessary. A wide array of such should be included with the OS from the beginning. In 2020, there is no excuse for not being able to run old software.