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Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

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Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#131

Post by Vinnl »

frenchy wrote: post #73
no_wizard wrote: post #63

I e recently arrived at the conclusion that we need semantic interfaces (think semantic web). Where things are naturally cross referential and indexing is useful beyond clever search hacks. With so much of our day to day lives being digital it would be UI 2.0 to finally break this barrier. It struck me like a brick wall how I released that my interactions with the “machine” are incredibly isolated from one another an…

While I think you're right in the sense of "semantic interfaces are our best hope for driving inovation", I'm not optimistic this will happen. Everything I've seen in popular desktop UX has been migrating away from even the slightest semblance of that for the past 10 years. The problem is that semantics require coordination, and agreement on some semblance of a common language. Popular apps can just strong-arm others…

I'm afraid the only way this happens is if a single player controls the whole stack that requires coordination. For example, Google can automatically set a reminder in your calendar about needing to go to work because it knows when you go where through their navigation app. Getting those two to communicate/agree on a common language in that way when you do not control both apps is far harder.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#132

Post by diffeomorphism »

bobthepanda wrote: post #105
wraptile wrote: post #65

Wow, I'm masively disappointed with this thread. We have so many different Desktop "OS's" already. There's hardly a need for a _revolution_; strong stability and support is needed but there's just no paying market for it by the looks of it. 4 biggest desktop environments are by mega corporations (apple, microsoft) and by big open-source collectives (Gnome, KDE). But is that it? No, there's also a bunch of tilling-win…

> Real question: Do we continue to dumb down software to exclusive casual usage for house-moms or we try to move our society to be more techn savy as we are clearly moving to a more tech relying world. Why shouldn't everyone know how to code? Why shouldn't everyone churn their own butter? Why shouldn't everyone sew their own clothes? Why shouldn't everyone build our own homes? Should we continue to dumb down feeding,…

To me this reads like the complete opposite. Hiding the benefits of programming from the "unwashed masses" because they are not going to understand it anyways is gatekeeping.

The aim should be to make programming/scripting/automation easier and more accessible, not to hide it away to prevent people from ever using it.

> Why shouldn't everyone churn their own butter? Why shouldn't everyone sew their own clothes?

Why learn history in school? Why learn math? Why learn about philosophy? Should we stop teaching that in school because the will never use it anyways? Or is the opposite true and not teaching that would be the actual gatekeeping?

TLDR: You suggest that this would hide behind programming and thus be gatekeeping. I think you are hiding useful stuff==programming and are thus the gatekeeper.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#133

Post by swiley »

>who's doing exciting interesting things with the desktop?

X11 DE/WM authors are.

FVWM is still one of the only WMs with a true virtual desktop (ie you can pan around a virtual screen larger than the physical one.)

CWM is extermely minimalist and my personal favorite currently.

Fluxbox has some nice and flexible theming/configuration. I run this on my phone since CWM doesn't work without a keyboard (or at least a meta key.)

Don't forget all the tiling window managers.

KDE/GNOME have some neat ideas but are slow etc.

Most mobile stuff is IMO a regression to some compromises made for extremely limited handhelds in the 90s and not innovation.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#134

Post by appleflaxen »

bobthepanda wrote: post #105
wraptile wrote: post #65

Wow, I'm masively disappointed with this thread. We have so many different Desktop "OS's" already. There's hardly a need for a _revolution_; strong stability and support is needed but there's just no paying market for it by the looks of it. 4 biggest desktop environments are by mega corporations (apple, microsoft) and by big open-source collectives (Gnome, KDE). But is that it? No, there's also a bunch of tilling-win…

> Real question: Do we continue to dumb down software to exclusive casual usage for house-moms or we try to move our society to be more techn savy as we are clearly moving to a more tech relying world. Why shouldn't everyone know how to code? Why shouldn't everyone churn their own butter? Why shouldn't everyone sew their own clothes? Why shouldn't everyone build our own homes? Should we continue to dumb down feeding,…

where do you see gatekeeping in that comment?

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#135

Post by DonHopkins »

linguae wrote: post #75

I am working on a side project where I am building a desktop environment for Linux and the BSDs that implements OpenDoc-style components using Common Lisp, where components are objects and where they could be combined not only by using code, but graphically as well. This is inspired by Smalltalk, Lisp machines, and OpenDoc. Another aspect of this desktop environment is its support for very flexible user interfaces th…

Those are some great ideas that dovetail together in powerful ways! Thanks you for sharing your work in progress.

In the hopes of inspiring you and others, here's a kind of messy draft of an article I haven't completely finished, but it's all about HyperLook (a user-editable desktop GUI system inspired by HyperCard and implemented in NeWS PostScript) and some components and applications I developed with it, like SimCity, a cellular automata machine, pie menus, a customizable clock editor, a customizable window manager, and "Happy Tool":

SimCity, Cellular Automata, and Happy Tool for HyperLook (nee HyperNeWS (nee GoodNeWS))

HyperLook was like HyperCard for NeWS, with PostScript graphics and scripting plus networking. Here are three unique and wacky examples that plug together to show what HyperNeWS was all about, and where we could go in the future!

https://medium.com/@donhopkins/hyperlook-nee-hypernews-nee-g...

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#136

Post by tsimionescu »

Ygg2 wrote: post #95
ptidhomme wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to write faster with my index finger + swype than with a keyboard (now I have an old iPhone) I find screen size to be a bigger advantage to desktop.

I tried writing non english words with those swipe keyboards (on Android, mind you). I had a horrible time.

I can't agree with the grandparent about type + swipe being anywhere near the speed of a keyboard, but in my experience, writing in other languages using swipe is just as fast as in English (at least for other languages that use the Latin alphabet). I frequently use swiping for bilingual English + Romanian (a language which tends to have much longer words than English) conversations, and it generally works very well, even bilingually. I would note that I'm using some Microsoft keyboard for Android, I forget its name, and it is explicitly configured for both languages.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#137

Post by boudin »

raziel2p wrote: post #129
II2II wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we usually discuss things in extremes. We don't need to know how to sew our own clothes, but knowing how to mend them is useful. Do we really want to live in a world where we toss out a shirt simply because a button falls off? We don't need to know how to build a home, but knowing how to fix simple problems is useful. Do we really want to live in a world where we have to call in an electrician eve…

I don't think your metaphors work. There's a huge difference between knowing how to sew a button or flipping a circuit breaker and being able to code.

Though a lot of elementary schools and junior high schools provides basic coding classes, but no sewing ones.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#138

Post by wraptile »

raziel2p wrote: post #129
II2II wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we usually discuss things in extremes. We don't need to know how to sew our own clothes, but knowing how to mend them is useful. Do we really want to live in a world where we toss out a shirt simply because a button falls off? We don't need to know how to build a home, but knowing how to fix simple problems is useful. Do we really want to live in a world where we have to call in an electrician eve…

I don't think your metaphors work. There's a huge difference between knowing how to sew a button or flipping a circuit breaker and being able to code.

I didn't necessarily mean "learn to code" in such explicit manner with my original comment. More like learn technology itself and some strong basics of how everything works so people would be more equipped to grok this new world we're living in.

To get a driver's license you need some basic knowledge of car internals. I'd argue that computers are infinitely more important in our society than a car yet majority of people have absolutely no idea how computers work and are expected not only to live in this world but to ace it too.

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#139

Post by DonHopkins »

linguae wrote: post #75

I am working on a side project where I am building a desktop environment for Linux and the BSDs that implements OpenDoc-style components using Common Lisp, where components are objects and where they could be combined not only by using code, but graphically as well. This is inspired by Smalltalk, Lisp machines, and OpenDoc. Another aspect of this desktop environment is its support for very flexible user interfaces th…

Also check out Simon Schneegan's spectacular work on FlyPie, OpenPie, Gnome-Pie, and his Coral Menus and Trace Menus:

https://schneegans.github.io/news/2020/08/13/flypie

http://schneegans.github.io/news/2020/10/10/flypie3

http://schneegans.github.io/news/2018/05/31/openpie

http://schneegans.github.io/gnome-pie

http://schneegans.github.io/news/2017/07/09/gnome-pie-071

https://schneegans.github.io/news/2012/10/10/bachelor-thesis

https://vimeo.com/51072812

https://vimeo.com/51073078

Re: Re-Thinking the Desktop OS

#140

Post by DonHopkins »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #31
firloop wrote: post #20

I don’t want to re-invent the desktop. As a software engineer, I’m annoyed that I can’t do my entire job on my phone. I’d like to see dramatically better portable input interfaces. I’d even be happy if more love was paid to “desktop light” environments. I have an iPad Pro that’s useless for software development without SSHing into a machine.

> I have an iPad Pro that’s useless for software development without SSHing into a machine. And even that is a horrible experience because the iPad keyboard doesn’t allow key repeat, making vim a terrible experience. That used to be an issue anyway. Maybe they’ve fixed it.

And no escape key! How do you get out of VIM insert mode? Control-[? Might as well use Emacs. At least there's an Option key for Meta.
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