World reaction to long queues of voters in US • Hacker News Board

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#201

Post by bpt3 » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

tom_mellior wrote: post #185

bpt3 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's hard data showing that long lines like these aren't the norm: https://medium.com/mit-election-lab/insights-into-voting-wai...

Thanks for this! "Not the norm" is a bit of an over-interpretation though. That data shows that in many states such lines were indeed the norm until very recent reforms (as in, there is only one post-reform data point to go on). And that the reforms didn't help non-white voters to the same extent that they did white voters.

The data shows that hours-long waits are not and haven't been the norm, as I stated.

There is data on wait times from 4 elections in the article, none of which supports a claim that the wait times shown in the BBC article are at all normal.

It's obvious that you're looking to draw a very specific conclusion regardless of the data presented, so best of luck with that.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#202

Post by specialist » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

0x262d wrote: post #42

Taek wrote: post #2

It's both amazing and terrible. Amazing to see people standing up for their rights and voting in the face of adversity, these voters deserve praise and are role models for the country. Terrible because it means that they are in corrupt districts that are not properly facilitating democracy. Worthy of a federal corruption investigation potentially resulting in criminal charges. Though I am very glad people are willing…

It drives me nuts that the "opposition" party is not responding to this with calls for mass action to demand fair elections, including occupations and strikes if necessary, but by exhorting unlikely voters who feel apathetic to vote harder against voter suppression.

Any reform will come from outside the system. Said from experience.

I share your frustration. I worked on election and voting issues for a decade, fulltime for two years. I was slow to realize that my Mr Smith Goes to Washington folk theory of politics has no basis in reality. The only successes me and mine achieved were thru bringing pressure.

I highly recommend Camp Wellstone's training for organizers. (Please share recommendations.)

Electeds, leaders, and partisans to effect change is a misunderstanding of what they do. They are in a neverending knife fight for power. Any actual policies are merely the playing cards in the game. Sure, many pols do hold one or two firm positions, for which they will expend "political capital".

Leah Stokes' recent book Short Circuiting Policy is a very good, data driven explanation of policy formation. I collect books about politics, policy, etc. Mostly to better understand and learn from own experiences. Many very good.

That said, Stokes most closely matches my understanding of how legislators behave wrt policy.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#203

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

Sargos wrote: post #44

manishsharan wrote: post #9

I think the most worrying aspect is an emerging strain of political thought in the US that USA is merely a republic but not a democracy. I find it quite shocking that it has gained a great deal of acceptance. edit : typo

The USA is technically not a democracy and is instead a representative republic which is a fact. I guess you're alluding to how citizens can "vote" which means it's actually a democracy to which I would strongly disagree. I have little to no influence over my government as I live in a gerrymandered district so my representative is decided for me ahead of time. I also only get to pick between 2 old white guys every 4…

> The USA is technically not a democracy and is instead a representative republic

I have a degree in political science, and I've never seen anyone who knows what they are talking about use the term "representative republic". The US is, in theoretical structure, both a federal republic and a representative democracy, albeit one with very unequal representation. In practice, it tends to work as something like a plutocratic aristocracy, but its considered impolite in many circles to the point that out.

> I also only get to pick between 2 old white guys every 4 years

That's only true if you choose to restrict yourself to participation in only Presidential general elections, and not all the elections for other offices or earlier parts of the cycle (and also requires an unusually broad definition of "white" [e.g., including Barack Obama, 2008 & 2012] and "guy", [Hillary Clinton, 2016] and "old" [prior to Trump, the last three presidents were elected at ages 46, 54, and 47--though in the first and last cases their opponents were significantly older--which is certainly middle-aged but hardly "old" for a head of government.])

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#204

Post by bpt3 » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

542354234235 wrote: post #198

bpt3 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's unacceptable in my opinion, but it's not the norm at all, even in traditionally democratic-voting areas.

This is the norm and has been happening for the last 8 years. > Across the country, more than 2,000 polling places closed between the 2012 and 2016 general elections… for every 10 polling places that closed in the rest of the country, 13 closed within the jurisdictions once under oversight [of the Voting Rights Act]. Policies that introduce barriers to voting — like Texas’ strict voter ID requirements and North Carol…

Hours-long waits to vote are not the norm: https://medium.com/mit-election-lab/insights-into-voting-wai...

Having a single early voting location in an entire county that size isn't the norm either this year.

I do not in any way support the closure of polling places or other attempts at implicit voter suppression, but mischaracterising what is happening in the BBC article (which is describing early voting) isn't helpful.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#205

Post by godtoldmetodoit » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

aww_dang wrote: post #194

godtoldmetodoit wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to agree with you on this line of thinking, but over the past few years my thinking has been changing quite radically. What good is protections against tyranny of the majority if it just results in tyranny of the minority? The majority will only play a rigged game for so long - as you are beginning to see with Democrats seriously discussing court packing should they win power. One party has gotten Presidents i…

>A Wyoming voter has vastly more power then a Californian voter in every federal election. When the Founders set up the Senate, Virginia was something like 15x more populous then the least populist state. California is 66x more populous then Wyoming today. Which is why CA has 53 congressional representatives and WY only has one.

You are missing the point. There is a set amount of Representatives (435), and the smallest district by population is Wyoming's at 577,000. In California the average district population is more like 745,000. That gives a Wyoming voter a disproportionate amount of power, and obviously Wyoming and California are just the two clearest examples, this concept plays out over the entire country.

So even in the House which is supposed to be most representative of the majority - the minority has a significant advantage.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#206

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

hexadec wrote: post #191

Jtsummers wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NC? GA? Another state that was (prior to 2013) limited in what it could do by the VRA?

NC

I moved out of there just before all that hit, and straight to GA where I got to see their version of it. Now I'm in CO, and my ballot showed up over the weekend. I'll fill it out tonight and submit it by this weekend. Much smoother experience. It's pleasant being somewhere that doesn't seem to be actively disenfranchising its residents.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#207

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

Sargos wrote: post #78

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, one can vote for any party (preferential voting). There are other parties in America but you seldom hear about them. Two examples are the Green Party and the Libertarian party.

In a first past the post system like the US has it will always mathematically be a 2 party system. Maybe the democrats or republicans actually self destruct and cease being a party and one of those other parties take its place but there can never be a 3 party government in our system as it's impossible.

I suggest you read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_St...

A significant number of Libertarians have held and do hold state legislature positions and governorships.

There is also currently 1 Libertarian in the US House of Representatives.

Libertarian presidential candidates have received electoral college votes in the past.

And

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_third-party_performa...

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#208

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

0x262d wrote: post #42

Taek wrote: post #2

It's both amazing and terrible. Amazing to see people standing up for their rights and voting in the face of adversity, these voters deserve praise and are role models for the country. Terrible because it means that they are in corrupt districts that are not properly facilitating democracy. Worthy of a federal corruption investigation potentially resulting in criminal charges. Though I am very glad people are willing…

It drives me nuts that the "opposition" party is not responding to this with calls for mass action to demand fair elections, including occupations and strikes if necessary, but by exhorting unlikely voters who feel apathetic to vote harder against voter suppression.

> It drives me nuts that the "opposition" party is not responding to this with calls for mass action to demand fair elections, including occupations and strikes if necessary

Whether or not that is justifiable by the level of offense (which I think it is), I don't see any indication that it would be tactically smart in the current context, and actually a lot of reasons to the think it would be catastrophically counterproductive.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#209

Post by jakelazaroff » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

12xo wrote: post #193

jakelazaroff wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy it. Like I said, the US has systemically disenfranchised voters from inception through the present. One of our two major political parties is explicitly invested in continuing that practice, and the other is only nominally opposed. This is not a recent invention, and it's not due to the media. It's built right into the foundation of our country.

One has to understand the root of the cause if you wish to treat the illness. It is no secret that the removal of the Fairness Doctrine paired with the deregulation of media and the removal of Congress's oversight and license requirements helped fuel the right wing media rise over the last 15years. Pair that with the rise of internet based style ad measurement and audience feedback, and you create a media tailor made…

The root cause is that our country is a hegemony founded by rich slave owners. The “decades of decency and abidance to a common good” is a myth that erases the ongoing plight of marginalized people, spun by those who want to keep that status quo. We have always been a violent and oppressive nation — the caste system is enshrined in our national DNA, and we have never in our 250 year existence truly reckoned with it.

If only the issue were as shallow as the media dividing us! I’ll make the same request of you: that you direct your gaze a little further back to discover what’s truly going on here.

Re: World reaction to long queues of voters in US

#210

Post by bpt3 » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #199

bpt3 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, no. They assumed people would just wait until more polling stations opened up closer to election day (or on election day itself) to avoid waiting in these lines.

Of course they did. It's all just an honest misunderstanding on the part of election officials, and voters hacking the election procedures and inconveniencing themselves deliberately for... reasons. None of that sounds completely crazy.

Standing in line for hours to vote weeks before election day when all evidence indicates that lines will be significantly shorter in the weeks ahead does sound crazy to me. I provided the most rational explanation I've received in my original comment above.

I live in a high income area with a relatively high functioning local government run almost exclusively by liberal democrats, so I strongly question any claims that attempted voter suppression is the reason for the long lines in my area that have existed every day since early voting started.