PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack • Hacker News Board

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#91

Post by zepto » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

hnaccy wrote: post #25

Why is there so little call for reform from congress and new administrations etc? Obama or Trump had no part in building the original system so why do they continue it? Is the political class as a whole 100% on board with authoritarian, privacy invading, controlling America?

One explanation would be some cabal or ‘the political class’ having an authoritarian agenda.

The other would be that some of the danger is real and people in power are wary of giving up tools to fight it.

Most likely both have significant truth.

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#92

Post by meowface » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

docPangloss wrote: post #48

I referenced PRISM in a comment to a recent Apple article on HN a couple of days ago. It triggered HN and Apple fans and the comment ultimately got shadow-banned by moderators.[1] Anyway, it’s astonishing that so many people willfully continue to use products/services offered by the core companies that are members of PRISM surveillance. Members provide access to ALL user data/information to NSA et al. Here are some t…

>it’s astonishing that so many people willfully continue to use products/services offered by the core companies that are members of PRISM surveillance

I don't think it's practical to expect either ordinary consumers or tech-savvy people to completely avoid all use of any Microsoft, Facebook, Yahoo, Google, YouTube, Apple, Dropbox, or Verizon/T-Mobile/Sprint/AT&T product or service, or to use Tor or I2P 24/7 as that website seems to suggest.

In how many cases were those companies essentially forced or heavily pressured to participate?

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#93

Post by bigbubba » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #78

> NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack Because terrorist attacks that were prevented didn't happen, there is no way to know. We could only speculate by correlating terrorist attacks and surveillance, but there are so many external variables that it is effectively impossible to prove causation. What the ruling said is that the NSA surveillance program resulted in only one conviction relat…

> Because terrorist attacks that were prevented didn't happen, there is no way to know. We could only speculate by correlating terrorist attacks and surveillance, but there are so many external variables that it is effectively impossible to prove causation.

This is nonsense, foiled attacks make the news. The FBI foiled a terrorist attack against the governor of Michigan a few days ago and that certainly made the news.

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#94

Post by maerF0x0 » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

And this is why we need to also halt the EARN IT Bill

https://act.eff.org/action/stop-the-earn-it-bill-before-it-b...

If only just to save the cost to taxpayers and companies for a useless policy.

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#95

Post by antris » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

jogjayr wrote: post #79

MarcellusDrum wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Patriot Act" is so maliciously named its more funny than sad. Reminds me of George Carlin's show about changing words to make them softer.[1] An good example he used to show this is the condition the fighters get from shock in combat. In WW1, it was called Shell Shock, a terrifying name. The same condition in WW1 was called Battle Fatigue, a nicer name. In the Korean War, the name changed to Operational Exhausti…

The intent isn't to make it softer though. "PTSD" is more accurate than "shell shock". In WWI they thought that the accumulated shockwave exposure from constant shelling caused mental issues in soldiers. Today we know that all sorts of stressful situations can cause PTSD; it doesn't require being in the trenches taking howitzer fire day and night.

The point Carlin was trying to make is that the human experience is removed from a term such as "post-traumatic stress disorder". Yes, it might be more medically accurate, but fighting for the rights of people who experienced "shell shock" might have been more impactful. When your experienced is buried underneath medical terms, you bury the humanity of it.

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#96

Post by Grimm1 » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

onedognight wrote: post #85

ianbutler wrote: post #5

No one should be surprised by this. This program was simply another extension of the US's march towards authoritarianism. Much like the patriot act and our secret warrants, founded on a dubious premise that over the last 20 years have largely borne no fruit in terms of protecting our freedoms and safety but have instead eroded them. This is a system designed to protect the larger system from any civs who may be getti…

What examples do you have an authoritarian slide caused by PRISM? I see plenty of examples of authoritarianism in the current U.S. administration, none of which can be traced to PRISM.

PRISM is part of the authoritarian slide, a symptom not the cause.

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#97

Post by technoplato » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

jogjayr wrote: post #79

MarcellusDrum wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Patriot Act" is so maliciously named its more funny than sad. Reminds me of George Carlin's show about changing words to make them softer.[1] An good example he used to show this is the condition the fighters get from shock in combat. In WW1, it was called Shell Shock, a terrifying name. The same condition in WW1 was called Battle Fatigue, a nicer name. In the Korean War, the name changed to Operational Exhausti…

The intent isn't to make it softer though. "PTSD" is more accurate than "shell shock". In WWI they thought that the accumulated shockwave exposure from constant shelling caused mental issues in soldiers. Today we know that all sorts of stressful situations can cause PTSD; it doesn't require being in the trenches taking howitzer fire day and night.

I don’t think your comment has any kind of negative intent, but I feel like the idea that grouping any consequence of civilian experience with those of military combat certainly cannot be a reasonable association.

I don’t think Carlin’s point was so much to comment on the accuracy of the description, but rather to say that these descriptions have become longer and longer as time has advanced and thereby lessons the guttural impact they “used” to command.

Do you think that’s fair?

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#98

Post by thebooktocome » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #46

qwerty456127 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't give a uck about the shoes actually but I absolutely don't feel like unlocking my phone or laptop, even though there's nothing criminal.

I've never had to do that, but I haven't flown since 2016. If I was asked, I'd refuse. If they wouldn't let me though, I'd walk away and eat the cost. I'll remember this for next time though. I'll be sure to check my phone and laptop. I could always just buy a book and not have electronic devices .. or maybe take a cassette deck.

That's not what happens when you refuse to unlock your phone/laptop. You may get detained indefinitely.

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#99

Post by mekboy » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

MarcellusDrum wrote: post #44

ianbutler wrote: post #5

No one should be surprised by this. This program was simply another extension of the US's march towards authoritarianism. Much like the patriot act and our secret warrants, founded on a dubious premise that over the last 20 years have largely borne no fruit in terms of protecting our freedoms and safety but have instead eroded them. This is a system designed to protect the larger system from any civs who may be getti…

The "Patriot Act" is so maliciously named its more funny than sad. Reminds me of George Carlin's show about changing words to make them softer.[1] An good example he used to show this is the condition the fighters get from shock in combat. In WW1, it was called Shell Shock, a terrifying name. The same condition in WW1 was called Battle Fatigue, a nicer name. In the Korean War, the name changed to Operational Exhausti…

prism was rebranded as semantic web

Re: PRISM – NSA surveillance program did not prevent a single terrorist attack

#100

Post by anm89 » Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

anoncareer0212 wrote: post #35

anm89 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bush and his crew had the Patriot act written before 9/11 and were simply waiting around for a circumstance to justify enacting it. Honestly I'm surprised this is even a controversial opinion at this point. This is exactly what Snowden exposed. That these programs were as if not more focused on internal spying than anything else.

Quite an extraordinary claim, I'm surprised _you're_ surprised it's controversial: can you share a little bit more about how Snowden exposed the Patriot Act was prewritten & waiting for an excuse to be enacted?

You are conflating two things. I did not claim that Snowden exposed that the patriot act was pre written. I don't believe that to be true. Snowden exposed the underlying premise, not that detail.