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Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

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Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#231

Post by phobosanomaly »

secabeen wrote: post #195
seibelj wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concede we need the state and am therefore not an anarcho-capitalist. My ideal state is as small as possible and no larger. Military and nuclear weapons are my biggest gotchas that I can’t reason my way around. So you are asking me the wrong premise - if the state has no power, what regulation can a corporation capture? I like corporations because businesses provide value. They can fail. The organizing principle ha…

The problem with a state with no power is that it has no ability to prevent organizations from externalizing all of the costs of their profits. A simple place to see this is in environmental regulations. I can give plenty of examples, but before the rise of environmental regulation in the late 20th century, wide swathes of our country were regularly and freely polluted. We fixed lots of that through application of go…

I wonder if there is any sort of a market mechanism proposed from the libertarian side that would account for this?

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#232

Post by AtlasBarfed »

throw0101a wrote: post #99
pfhorge wrote: post #28

I built my current house recently, and our builder used a prefab factory in the region for some of the construction. I would _never_ do it again. The process has all the pitfalls of the waterfall software development model, but at the end you have to live in the failed project! It took months for the factory to do their pre-build engineering, and that's after they started the process using plans from my architect. Th…

> […] so they don't have a strong incentive to hire skilled architects for the relatively small amount of custom work that comes in (I fell into this category). I'm led to believe that they hire draftsmen instead of architects. If you're going to go with a vendor with a 'catalogue' of prefab plans, then I would think you'd want to choose from their pre-designed plans. There's a middle-ground between completely prefab…

Yup. The theme is "why isn't prefab assembly line production not taking over home building", and the (current) top comment is: prefab didn't work for my custom design.

While architects can be talented and make a great design on so many levels, can they really fully optimize space for usability and features to a deep level? I just think of RV interior design, which amazes me sometimes with the ingenious use of space that is clearly the result of dozens of rounds of iterative design over the year.

Not that a house should be that crazy (aside from the tiny house movement) with maximizing space, but if there were industrial production, then you could get to deep optimization of the floor design.

What always strikes me with (american suburban) houses, is that they are very inefficient at vertical storage of things like clothes, dishes, and a ton of other housewares that you need on a daily basis (so you don't dump them in the basement). I walk through 3000 and 4000 sqft houses and they are only marginally better than a well designed 2000 sqft house in usability.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#233

Post by phobosanomaly »

tw04 wrote: post #227
phobosanomaly wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who are economists, and I get in this argument with them all the time over beers. There's economic optimization, and social optimization, and those are two different things that are often totally orthagonal. Economic progress is often horrendously negative for people's lives and livelihoods. People don't just pick-up and move, or re-train in a completely different field with the fluidity that is often…

The concept assumes there are replacement jobs being created. That was true for a hundred years, it hasn't been for the last 20+. At some point automation eliminates jobs wholesale, and there aren't replacements waiting. People always refer to cars replacing horses and point out that all those jobs surrounding horses were replaced with something else - manufacturing plant jobs, car salesman, etc. What they fail to me…

Would you back a UBI-based approach to this problem?

Any cool moonshot ideas for how to approach it?

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#234

Post by andrewflnr »

marcusverus wrote: post #137
andrewflnr wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is potentially very much like saying, "we burned this little bit of fuel, and all that happened was the fire got brighter because it spread to more fuel! It can never go out!". There's no reason to expect the job-generation cycle to last forever. In fact there's every reason to believe it can't. The question is whether it ends on a scale more like decades or centuries. To blindly assume that things will continue…

I agree that the job-generation cycle may not last forever. But in order to oppose new tech as a bad thing right now , you have to make the case that the job-generation cycle is broken right now . Arguing against new tech now because of some inevitable eventual breakdown of the job-generation cycle is just luddism with extra steps.

Sure, it's the blind faith that everything will magically be fine that pisses me off. We need to be preparing for a post-work economy.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#235

Post by blaser-waffle »

Klinky wrote: post #126
LatteLazy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd spend 20k in legal fees to gets a 5k refund after 3 years of litigation.

Is this really true? It doesn't seem like they consulted a lawyer. Consulting your contractor on what to do seems like a conflict of interest.

According to my neighbor, who is a lawyer and likes to drink, this is pretty common. He is on a lot of cases where the lawsuit makes him (the lawyer) more money than either party would have saved or lost had they just settled up front.

The one I remember had to do w/ $1900 worth of lost wedding photos cuz a server died or got deleted. Cost more to twist the knife in court than to just settle.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#236

Post by aggie »

pfhorge wrote: post #28

I built my current house recently, and our builder used a prefab factory in the region for some of the construction. I would _never_ do it again. The process has all the pitfalls of the waterfall software development model, but at the end you have to live in the failed project! It took months for the factory to do their pre-build engineering, and that's after they started the process using plans from my architect. Th…

A lot of these issues sound like bad workmanship and not inherent to the prefab process.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#237

Post by xster »

v77 wrote: post #119
xster wrote: post #59

Depends where you are. The company that built pre-fab parts for the 10-day 1,000 bed hospital in China is building a Huoshenshan equivalent hospital in Korea too. 11% of global CO2 emissions are from construction. Using pre-fab steel modules are not only more recyclable but the building process emits about 50% less CO2 as well. Building in earthquake resistance is much easier than steel-reinforced concrete. So it's n…

You should look up some of the new structural wood techniques being used.

Don't leave me hanging man. Gimme some starting points.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#238

Post by xyzzyz »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #53
bluGill wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it is in to make fun of "toothpick and card board" construction, but modern engineering has found them very strong when used correctly. What you intuitively think is better often isn't.

I assume anyone making fun of 2x4 and drywall construction has no experience in construction or land development. The complaints all have to do with cheap materials, and/or shoddy construction if walls aren't straight. But done right with good insulation and quality materials, I would take it over any other type. It's nice and easy to modify and repair also. Unfortunately most of the money people use to buy goes into…

The complaints all have to do with cheap materials, and/or shoddy construction if walls aren't straight.

That's right. The parent was complaining about homes built from sticks and cardboard, and indeed, one can actually use foil-faced cardboard for sheathing the shear walls (one product name is ThermoPly, there are others). You attach these to walls you build 24" O, slap 3/8" drywall inside, put vinyl siding, make absolutely no effort whatsoever to air-seal anything, save on gluing subfloor to joists (nobody will mind the squeaking), and the list can go on and on. House built like that will be utter garbage, will be expensive and uncomfortable to live in, and if it doesn't collapse due to water-damage induced rot, it's only because of high robustness of wood-frame construction.

However, you don't have to build this way! You can build a solid, sturdy, well-insulated, well-ventilated, soundproof, rigid and long-lasting house using wood-frame construction. It will just cost more. The great thing about wood-frame construction is that you can actually make these kind of decisions, and you can pick and choose parts which you care about, and the ones the quality of which you can give up on. Moreover, it's pretty easy to upgrade things later on, easy to fix if something breaks, and easy to build additions to.

I grew up in a country where lumber was too expensive to use it for construction, so everything was made from concrete (typically using CMUs). I used to think that this is a way to go, but over time I really became converted to American-style wood frame construction.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#239

Post by floatingatoll »

dejv wrote: post #75
floatingatoll wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what company?

It is local company from Czech republic called Freedomky. One example: https://www.dwell.com/home/freedomek-no.061-ce8de0e1

I have one of those photos saved! I should have read the article more closely. Thank you :)

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#240

Post by briancp »

jaclaz wrote: post #222
briancp wrote: post #180

Background: structural engineer, have worked with prefab construction in various capacities The short answer to this question is "because we haven't figured out how to make it less expensive than regular site built construction". The longer answer: prefab, or modular, construction has made inroads in various construction niches. Parking garages are nearly all prefabricated concrete for instance. Light framed building…

Only to somehow confirm anecdotally what you said but in another area of constructions. I have been working in and around the construction industry for the last 35+ years in Italy and in the '90's the firm I was working for had a department for pre-fabricated (concrete) buildings (more like condos or office buildings than "single" homes), which was led by an engineer that was - really - a technical genius and - besid…

This is super interesting, I'd love to hear more about the systems you were using if you're up for discussing. briancpotter@gmail.com
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