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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#661

Post by tssva »

bborud wrote: post #658
tssva wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example to support this statement?

The freedom to disagree with others. The freedom to marry who you want. The freedom to move about freely in nature without having to worry about property lines. In some places that are less free, these things are frowned upon. Edit: you can read about the freedom to move about in nature in certain countries here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

"In some places that are less free, these things are frowned upon." They are frowned upon by some because they affect what those people believe their freedoms should entail. None of these are examples of exercising of freedoms that don't affect the freedom of others.

Take for example the freedom to move about freely in nature without having to worry about property lines. This most definitely affects the property rights of others and their freedom to do as they wish with their property. I'm not saying that your freedom of movement shouldn't out rank their property rights and the freedom to do as they will with their own property but it certainly impacts their freedoms.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#662

Post by [deleted] »

seer wrote: post #197
djsumdog wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readers from other countries, what is it like there? I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.) In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, bu…

In Bulgaria (EU) they often ask you to provide proof that you are currently not being prosecuted, but apart from that, the only time I’ve been asked to get a criminal record was when applying for a citizenship. And having one is not something that would stop the process, but can be grounds for denial. Programmers can get a free pass for a lot of things here though.

[deleted]

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#663

Post by seer »

Justen wrote: post #214
seer wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Bulgaria (EU) they often ask you to provide proof that you are currently not being prosecuted, but apart from that, the only time I’ve been asked to get a criminal record was when applying for a citizenship. And having one is not something that would stop the process, but can be grounds for denial. Programmers can get a free pass for a lot of things here though.

Just curious how you would typically prove you aren't being prosecuted.

Go to the police station and ask them to give you a “note”

Fun fact is that you need this note even if your dealing with another government agency.

When applying for Bulgarian citizenship, I was required to obtain such note. I would have guessed that they have more reliable ways of telling if someone actually is in an active police case, but no, they want that “note”. No web service to actually do this. I mean they could have just called the police department or something... I had to spend a good part of a day waiting there just to get it...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#664

Post by johnisgood »

sumosudo wrote: post #657
shadowprofile77 wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just puritanical, judgemental idiocy at its most pointlessly discriminatory. Even for felony offenses it often veers into the same territory but flatly refusing to hire people for fucking misdemeanors with absolutely no relevance to most of the work involved? What a closed, almost hatefully punitive mentality some employers have. I can't put myself into another's shoes or context of needs, but if I ran a firm…

Every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a future.

Everyone has a past and a future, but what kind?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#665

Post by ManBlanket »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #620
ManBlanket wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't check the felony checkbox. Seriously.

At best, that can get you fired. Easily. And that makes it even more difficult to find another job in the future.

So a low chances of being fired is better than a zero chance of being hired? If it isn't immediately pertinent to the applicant's ability to do the job, for example if a convicted sex offender were applying for a position as a child caretaker, and the offender has paid their due to society then the employer has no right to ask. Everything but that type of conflict of interest should be treated as personal information. It's the justice system's job to serve justice, not the responsibility of HR.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#666

Post by ManBlanket »

afiori wrote: post #637
ManBlanket wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a felony on my record and struggled immensely because of a long wrap sheet of misdemeanor crimes that seemed to cascade from that single mistake. My record has caused me to be fired from and denied several jobs, and at my lowest point I was kicked out of an education program despite succeeding otherwise. "None of my charges are violent or sexual. There's no reason to conclude I'd be a danger to children.…

> It should be illegal for anybody to access resolved criminal records if they don't have a direct reason pertaining to the safety or security of others. > It's not your job as an employer or hiring manager to judge someone's mistakes, only their aptitude to perform a job. I have no horse in this race, so my opinion is mostly out of ignorance, but I believe that this formulation isn't entirely correct. In a sense emp…

So what is your take? In the same sentence you've both advocated and dissented on the issue of employers discriminating against resolved charges not pertaining to the job. Is that what you mean by, "no horse in this race"? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so to speak.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#667

Post by afiori »

ManBlanket wrote: post #666
afiori wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be illegal for anybody to access resolved criminal records if they don't have a direct reason pertaining to the safety or security of others. > It's not your job as an employer or hiring manager to judge someone's mistakes, only their aptitude to perform a job. I have no horse in this race, so my opinion is mostly out of ignorance, but I believe that this formulation isn't entirely correct. In a sense emp…

So what is your take? In the same sentence you've both advocated and dissented on the issue of employers discriminating against resolved charges not pertaining to the job. Is that what you mean by, "no horse in this race"? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so to speak.

My take is that it is not about whether the employers have a right to do background checks or not, rather it is about the effect that practice has on society.

If few employers do background checks that ex-convicts have easy to access alternatives it is not a problem, if enough employers use that a new social class of unemployable people is created it becomes a serious problem.

I like the idea of forbidding discrimination based on unrelated offences, but am not particularly informed on the topic.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#668

Post by afiori »

afiori wrote: post #667
ManBlanket wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is your take? In the same sentence you've both advocated and dissented on the issue of employers discriminating against resolved charges not pertaining to the job. Is that what you mean by, "no horse in this race"? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so to speak.

My take is that it is not about whether the employers have a right to do background checks or not, rather it is about the effect that practice has on society. If few employers do background checks that ex-convicts have easy to access alternatives it is not a problem, if enough employers use that a new social class of unemployable people is created it becomes a serious problem. I like the idea of forbidding discrimina…

said another way my claim is that we should have strong anti-discrimination laws for ex-convicts, not for a-priori or theoretical reasons but because they absence is causing a problem.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#669

Post by arolihas »

vector_spaces wrote: post #539
arolihas wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the purpose of sharing that quote then, if not to disparage the sentiment? To disparage whoever said it? Do you know when that quote was made, as Gandhi’s views (which were a product of his time and upbringing) evolved over the span of his life?

My point was that figures like Gandhi are idolized in the West through tired, decontextualized quotes like the one above, and the result is that they are (popularly) effectively above reproach. The result is an ahistorical understanding of a complicated person who held a number of views (at various points in his life, although there's little evidence to support that his thinking on this particular topic evolved much…

Is it not a good quote then? Is there nothing to learn from Gandhi if every time he is brought up we have to bring up his opinions he held in his early twenties. Of course not everyone held them but most British educated lawyers in South Africa did. His racist opinion he held at one point in his life has nothing to do with his later quote nor does it have anything to do with the original thread at all speaking. You’re the one bringing a decontextualized quote that isn’t adding anything but to shit on Gandhi. Yes he isn’t perfect, we know that. But surely we don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#670

Post by bborud »

tssva wrote: post #661
bborud wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The freedom to disagree with others. The freedom to marry who you want. The freedom to move about freely in nature without having to worry about property lines. In some places that are less free, these things are frowned upon. Edit: you can read about the freedom to move about in nature in certain countries here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

"In some places that are less free, these things are frowned upon." They are frowned upon by some because they affect what those people believe their freedoms should entail. None of these are examples of exercising of freedoms that don't affect the freedom of others. Take for example the freedom to move about freely in nature without having to worry about property lines. This most definitely affects the property righ…

I think most scandinavians would disagree with you.

In my opinion, someone having a problem with people taking a walk in their forest need help.

(And yes, I grew up on a property that has a forest, and yes, when encountering people going for a walk or gathering mushrooms, one says «hello» and smiles)

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