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Removing Holocaust Denial Content

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Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#791

Post by ephimetheus »

raxxorrax wrote: post #781
ephimetheus wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holocaust denial is banned in Germany (same as swastikas by the way). It works really well. The only people complaining are literally people trying to twist perception of the arguably worst crime in the history of humanity, to make Germany look like a victim. FB is clearly doing the right thing here. Free speech has limits.

Germany is also not that successful in not becoming a dictatorship less than once per century. The US approach is certainly more successful and there are reasons for that.

Take an honest look at your government and your country in 2020, and then let’s talk again.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#792

Post by ephimetheus »

raxxorrax wrote: post #782
ephimetheus wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you dug up, but I’m not aware of anyone with an interest other than proving “see, we weren’t the bad guys”. Since the Holocaust is a historical fact, historians without revisionist goals have no reason to debate its existence. Research into the extent and details of the Holocaust are perfectly acceptable. Side not, the absolute vast majority of German society is on board with this limit of freedom of sp…

You fail to make the distinction in holding the opinion and allowing people to have the opinion. I would a tiny minority of people complaining about speech restrictions hold the opinion or even want to make it socially acceptable. Most just argue that people themselves should be the ones to cast the judgement, not Facebook. These are very basic comprehension issues and your insinuation on those that disagree are fair…

I’m very much able to make the distinction, but there are opinions so vile they can’t be tolerated. That’s just a fact.

The line is also pretty clear, at least as far as the German law is concerned, so the danger (see slippery slope argument) is well worth the risk. The slippery slope argument is more applicable the other way round: if you tolerate this, it normalizes or rationalizes the Holocaust, and that’s the first step towards another genocide.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#793

Post by ephimetheus »

nostromo wrote: post #491
ephimetheus wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holocaust denial is banned in Germany (same as swastikas by the way). It works really well. The only people complaining are literally people trying to twist perception of the arguably worst crime in the history of humanity, to make Germany look like a victim. FB is clearly doing the right thing here. Free speech has limits.

> It works really well. Because it's banned, it's impossible to know how well it works. I'm reminded of Iran's leader claiming they have no gay people. Of course he would think that, because if they were openly gay they would be jailed.

Right, I would think you can measure success by number of years without widespread support for fascism. So far, we seem to be on track.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#794

Post by raxxorrax »

ephimetheus wrote: post #790
raxxorrax wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then fight it by ignoring it. It is how virality works on the internet.

Sure but ignoring it is precisely how you let it happen again, and I’m not down with having that on my conscience.

People on the far right want to provoke. Engaging them isn't how you deal with them.

10 years ago they were ignored and we had far fewer problems with them. It was actually funny seeing them trying to connect to groups. Anime fans, gamers, they even draw my little pony shit. But they made little inroads into these communities. Only as those groups were also accused by the self declared inquisition of good is when lines were blurred. Of course they reacted poorly. You don't need science or studies here, it is self evident. Helping a self fulfilling prophecy isn't in my interest.

Look what Germany has caused with its laws to enforce speech codes (NetzDG). 2 weeks later Russia had its version ready to suppress dissent.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow...

Being stupid about it can let it happen again. Don't be stupid about it.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#795

Post by Dobbs »

globular-toast wrote: post #722
globular-toast wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you have the choice to ignore them. Why do you think you have a right to stop others hearing the same arguments?

Predictably downvoted instead of answering the simple question. Fine, I'll tell you why you think you have the right: you think that you're more intelligent than most people and while you can see that the arguments are bogus, others are too feeble and might be more easily persuaded. So you think it's best for them (and you) that they don't see it.

Or I'm part of the group that all the hate is being spread about.

I didn't down vote you. You are getting downvoted because you are being condescending.

You can't just ignore the hatred being spewed at you. It infects how you interact with the world. You start having panic attacks going into the toilet, because maybe you will be harassed today when you want to pee. The people who hate you latch onto the twisted news stories. They use it to deny progress, or to push through restrictions. Like the US politicians quoting JK Rowling for why we should restrict trans rights. The bullshit spreads. It doesn't matter that JK Rowling almost never quotes any sources, and the one she does has been well disproven and largely retracted. People still read what she says, ignore the corrections and continue to spread the hate.

The number of times I've heard someone going on about how we are giving children surgery. It is ridiculous how ill-informed yet completely certain in their opinion people can be about trans healthcare. I'm not more intelligent than anyone else, I just have an invested reason (my very life) to be well informed on the topic.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#796

Post by raxxorrax »

ephimetheus wrote: post #791
raxxorrax wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is also not that successful in not becoming a dictatorship less than once per century. The US approach is certainly more successful and there are reasons for that.

Take an honest look at your government and your country in 2020, and then let’s talk again.

Not in danger of a far right overtake, even without stricter online speech regulations.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#797

Post by ShamelessC »

tomp wrote: post #493
ShamelessC wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, just take a step back. Do we have to be so principled about all this? Holocaust Deniers are bad. Full stop. We all keep going back and forth on these principled stances about how freedom of speech is some holy thing that should be protected at all costs no matter how much damage it causes. That notion is absurd in my experience. This philosophical ideal of true freedom of speech doesn't even exist! 4Chan still…

> Holocaust Deniers are pieces of shit. Full stop. A decent society considers even pieces of shit worthy of human dignity.

And does your unclear definition of a "decent society" and "human dignity" imply that yelling fire in a theatre (or denying the holocaust) is acceptable behavior?

I mean, we both just called them pieces of shit. My version of the word "dignity" generally precludes people who have shown they have no dignity.

At any rate, I suspect you wrote this particular argument because it lacks nuance, appeals to our sense of decency and is emotionally appealing to those who already hold the viewpoint.

Were you trying to change my mind? Or just trying to find out how many people agree with you?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#798

Post by ShamelessC »

malwrar wrote: post #515
ShamelessC wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, just take a step back. Do we have to be so principled about all this? Holocaust Deniers are bad. Full stop. We all keep going back and forth on these principled stances about how freedom of speech is some holy thing that should be protected at all costs no matter how much damage it causes. That notion is absurd in my experience. This philosophical ideal of true freedom of speech doesn't even exist! 4Chan still…

It is amusing that you propose the vigorous use of force (“Ban Them. All of them. Today”) to eliminate voices you deem fascist. If you feel this strongly about the harm of holocaust denial, have you considered working to convince people the holocaust did in fact happen? It’s pretty easy—-plenty of evidence exists to suggest it happened and all attempts I’ve encountered of people make a case otherwise have been debunk…

These are people who are entrenched in a theory that also suggests people who disagree with you are "the enemy".

Arguing with someone like that is risky because the moment you get through to them, their cognitive dissonance might decide to double down on the falsehood because they would have to come to terms with the notion that they believe something quite shameful.

I see this happen in other areas alot. Mostly white people who can't handle that they may have contributed to racism at one point. "I'm not a racist! You're all just social just warriors!" turns into "I'm not a racist but...[insert racism here]". Of course the deep insecurity over being actually racist is the common thread. Meanwhile there's a whole other movement of white people who are now willing to admit how privileged all of us are to have been in a system for hundreds of years that was a "democracy" for some, but a nightmarish dictatorship for black people. Was I insecure when I realized how tone deaf I had been? Sure. But I possess self reflection and have made efforts to change my behavior since then.

But yes, if I find myself in a conversation with a holocaust denier I'll do my best to convince them they're wrong. I highly doubt that winds up working though.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#799

Post by duxup »

refurb wrote: post #758
duxup wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as holocaust denial goes, I don't think there's a mystery as far as the basis for such claims.

So if someone says "yes, Hilter wanted to kill all the Jews, but he only killed 5M, not 6M" is that intolerant? Because in many circles that's regarded as denialism or revisionism. This is the exact issue - what doesn't "intolerant" mean? It's a subjective label.

I don't think "he only killed 5M, not 6M" is holocaust denial.

I don't think of folks trying to do estimates in the range you're talking about involves denying it took place.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#800

Post by remram »

stale2002 wrote: post #757
remram wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are yelling or distributing pamphlets in my backyard and I don't like the message, and I ask you to move, I'm not sure you would refer to it as "censorship".

Sure, that would be you censoring certain types of speech on your property. It would have a pretty small effect on other people's ability to engage in speech. But it is an effect none the less. If you owned a huge amount of property, though, then this would be a larger amount of censorship.

We agree then, this is "censorship", but has nothing to do with "freedom of speech" as codified in US law.
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