Why hasn't prefab construction taken over? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#211

Post by throwawaysea » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 6:56 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #198

phobosanomaly wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so this is kind of interesting because to increase freedom, we would have to actively reduce existing legislation. So both sides, the side that sees government as the problem, and the side that sees government as the solution, have to get legislators on-board to actually do something to implement their plan. Oh man, things aren't looking good for any of us on either side. Let's check back in 10 years.

I have a minority view well outside the mainstream. Libertarians do best on individual issues. When analyzed in isolation the libertarian argument wins out for many things. While libertarians lack official power, the market is so powerful that it drives tons of human activity without people even being aware. Also, the belief that the government is all-powerful and can actually solve problems is 99% fiction. So while…

Both you and the person you are responding to have held a very interesting and civil discussion on a topic that is often charged. Thank you both for expressing these ideas so sanely. I found both the retraining "valley" from the parent poster and your positioning of libertarian worldviews as a state of mind interesting and crisp. Cheers.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#212

Post by mcv » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:19 AM UTC

pfhorge wrote: post #28

I built my current house recently, and our builder used a prefab factory in the region for some of the construction. I would _never_ do it again. The process has all the pitfalls of the waterfall software development model, but at the end you have to live in the failed project! It took months for the factory to do their pre-build engineering, and that's after they started the process using plans from my architect. Th…

I can imagine that bespoke is not a great fit for prefab. My impression of prefab construction is that it's mostly used when lots of identical buildings need to be built. Then you can afford to have everything tested in advance to make sure it all fits together. If you're building something unique, don't you basically miss out on all of the advantages of prefab, while keeping its disadvantages?

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#213

Post by altacc » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:25 AM UTC

pfhorge wrote: post #28

I built my current house recently, and our builder used a prefab factory in the region for some of the construction. I would _never_ do it again. The process has all the pitfalls of the waterfall software development model, but at the end you have to live in the failed project! It took months for the factory to do their pre-build engineering, and that's after they started the process using plans from my architect. Th…

It may not have been the customisation, more the processes of pre-fab in general and what the production process is. I didn't build my house but it's a recent pre-fab build, straight from the catalogue (a Swedish company). The amount of shoddy workmanship and shortcuts taken is surprising and I'm slowly correcting replacing a lot of the door & window surrounds, some floor supports, broken wiring, badly aligned panels, etc...

The overwhelming downside of not needing professional builders to build a house is not having professional builders build a house. Half-assed amateurs aren't going to give you the quality you expect for your home.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#214

Post by rorykoehler » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:43 AM UTC

istorical wrote: post #87

pfhorge wrote: post #28

I built my current house recently, and our builder used a prefab factory in the region for some of the construction. I would _never_ do it again. The process has all the pitfalls of the waterfall software development model, but at the end you have to live in the failed project! It took months for the factory to do their pre-build engineering, and that's after they started the process using plans from my architect. Th…

It sort of sounds like perhaps if you are going pre-fab you shouldn't expect to be able to do any modifications or fit their pieces to your own plans? Instead just find a site that is suitable and plop down their exact premade floorplan?

Yes, this story reminds me of some clients I’ve had that always want to customise off the shelf software to do what they want when it would be easier to build it from scratch.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#215

Post by andy_ppp » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:46 AM UTC

scrooched_moose wrote: post #172

moltar wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these problems are unique to your type of home maybe. I have been to a Bone Structure presentation. They fabricate all parts and interfaces using computer operated cutters with extreme precision from CAD plans. Note that parts are made of metal, not wood. The structure is then aligns perfectly and all connection holes align perfectly as well. The building is then assembled using just an electric screw driver,…

It may be precisely fabricated exactly as specified in the CAD plans. That doesn't mean the CAD isn't riddled with errors. I've worked in traditional construction and the plans are never accurate with hundreds of omissions/errors/interferences. Those can be corrected in real time when something is field built, but are nearly impossible when the house ships wrong but nearly finished. I can see it working with cookie c…

Getting on site to realise X is completely wrong is so standard most architects spend probably 20%+ of their time talking to builders. This level of QA never happens in a factory.

The buildings also look horrendous by default, artificial and cheap looking with a complete lack of character. I’m all for prefab in theory but it’s like building a whole piece of software without testing any of the interfaces fit together or that say logging and error handling are plumbed in without testing them. It’s clearly a recipe for disaster even with the best organised prefabricator.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#216

Post by asdff » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:49 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #141

jnwatson wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coworker had a similar story with his prefab. After it was delivered (and it comes delivered with sheetrock walls, electrical, and subfloor), my coworker noticed that the the factory forgot a step: the plumbing. The builder had to rip out lots of the sheetrock and install plumbing. Lots of mistakes occur while building a house. The difference is that when the workers are already in the field, it is generally quite…

Does the factory just wash their hands of it and keep thr money? Is there no accountability ?

Development is the industry of graft.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#217

Post by asdff » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #103

tw04 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One big area where modular prefab can potentially make a difference is by reducing the need for skilled tradesmen, particularly electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs. To what end? As a country we're already struggling to create enough middle-class jobs and you're suggesting we try to gut another whole sector. So that owners/executives of prefab factories can pocket the money? If you think it's going to reduce cost…

This is the fallacy - The Fallacy - that is always made by those who don’t understand economics. Why did we build the car when it put all of the horse tradesmen out of business? Why do we use elevator buttons and put the doormen out of a job? Why did we create the Internet when perfectly good newspaper printers could pass information to us? You are making an age-old argument that we need to reduce productivity in ord…

I think there is something to be said here. The car is a superior technology to a horse, but in many ways a prefab house is an inferior product. It's a regression, built from a need for skilled tradesmen and a lack of this labor supply.

I think a better way around that need would be to bolster training of skilled people which would lead to increased labor supply to meet this demand, rather than trying to figure out how to wring the last dime out of everything.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#218

Post by Gibbon1 » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:59 AM UTC

ako wrote: post #203

dcolkitt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big area where modular prefab can potentially make a difference is by reducing the need for skilled tradesmen, particularly electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs. In most growing American metros, a major constraining factor on housing supply is the lack of these skilled tradesmen. In contrast, drywall, painting, and landscaping tend to be lower-skilled and easier to draw from the general labor pool. You can have…

That sounds very much like the promise of low-code: use our pre-fab components to quickly assemble your software apps. You'll be able to this with lower skilled people, and no longer be limited by the lack skilled software engineers...

Offhand thought is the advantage to using lower skilled labor probably benefits Bone Structure more than it benefits the builder. Two choices pay bone structure a premium for custom cut metal framing or pay a premium for skilled framers.

Note unskilled tends to come with a lot of other negatives.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#219

Post by beauzero » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 8:12 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #188

rapsey wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People lease land to build on instead of buy? That sounds absolutely bananas. (I'm not from the US so unfamiliar with your market).

No, I think they meant that many lenders won't be willing to lend you money to buy bare land for a single home building project.

This. We live in farm country and bare land loans have gone from 20% down to 25% down in the last couple of years. You receive loans in chunks for building a custom home as the builder completes milestones. There was a "restoration" loan that came with certified builders and a government mandated architect that signed off on payment to the builder as milestones were reached. I am not sure if this type of loan is available any longer. In my opinion it is very difficult to purchase a mini farm (less than 100 acres) and make a go of it in the south. Some of our friends are building "barn" homes. Buy the land cheaply 5-10 acres. Have a metal barn built for less than $60k and then convert the interior to a home. This is very popular currently in Carroll county GA (feeder to Atlanta for jobs).

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#220

Post by mr__y » Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 8:42 AM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #209

rswail wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out who owns inner London land. Or the Duchy of Cornwall. There are examples of "leases of years" like Canberra/ACT in Australia, where all titles are for 99 year leaseholds. They've started renewing them since the first leases were granted in the 1920s.

Well ok but those are exceptional cases. What the person was talking about was a generic case.

> those are exceptional cases

the 99/100 year lease is quite common in many Europan countries. It's not "exceptional" here