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Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

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Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#261

Post by oh_sigh »

monocasa wrote: post #248
oh_sigh wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still doesn't mean you can talk about the act as if it has happened multiple times. Maybe if you changed your original post to "Police support throwing grenades..." and not "Police throw grenades..."

Multiple police in Atlanta do through multiple grenades. They just only threw it into crib with an infant in it once. But made sure we all knew that they think they did nothing wrong by doing that, and would absolutely do it again under the same circumstances. When you go out of your way, under oath, to say that your organization systemically didn't learn from the mistake and would absolutely do it again, an "only on…

I get your point. It doesn't change the fact that your post is factually inaccurate.

If you said that the Lebanese government was bad because they have all these deadly ammonia nitrate explosions, then it is factually incorrect because there was really only one explosion. Even if the Lebanese government tries to shirk responsibility, or say the explosion was a good thing and they'd do it again - none of that means that all of the sudden there was more than one ammonium nitrate explosion.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#262

Post by bigbubba »

btgeekboy wrote: post #238
bigbubba wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the biggest problem with these vehicles is the aesthetics and the mindset they attract. But in this regard, those armoured vehicles are only a small part of the problem. Their dark uniforms should be replaced with light uniforms. Replace black and dark blue uniforms with baby blue, white or 'day-glo' neons. Do the same to their guns (white plastic 'furniture' where possible), cars, and armoured vehicles. It d…

In other words, you want more WA State Patrol (white cars, light blue uniforms) than Seattle PD (navy blue for both), it seems. Though I recall the move to the navy blue uniforms in Seattle was for cost reasons - their old baby blue uniforms were custom, so they cost more.

Yes basically, though I would like to see these sort of aesthetic changes across the board, not just to uniforms. The uniforms and the rest of their equipment should convey peaceful professionalism, not macho militarism.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#263

Post by bigbubba »

kelnos wrote: post #234
bigbubba wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2008 attack in Mumbai lasted numerous days.

You are picking one particular attack and are attempting to use that single, outlying instance to argue for things that will not be necessary in the 99% case. And the problem with military gear -- as we're currently seeing, plain as the day -- is that cops will not just save it for the truly dire situations; they'll use it more and more until it becomes a part of routine operations.

There have been numerous attacks like that in other countries, some far more extreme. I chose a single example to illustrate my point, but that doesn't mean a single example is all that exists.

Anyway, the cops aren't using these armored vehicles to kill people, they primarily do that with guns. It isn't the use of these vehicles that concerns me, but rather the role these vehicles play in recruiting macho edgelords to be cops (the sort prone to shooting people with guns.) To address this, I would like all their vehicles to be repainted, uniforms redesigned, etc. Aesthetics matter, it influences the sort of person drawn to the job. A police force with a particularly militarized aesthetic will attract men who want to LARP as occupying forces in Baghdad.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#264

Post by bigbubba »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #239
kelnos wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our largest and most targeted cities (e.g. NYC, DC) absolutely should have dedicated heavy weapons troops on call to respond in real time to a terrorist attack. Absolutely not. The military does not handle issues like this on US soil. (If you meant something else by "troops", please choose your words more carefully.) I have zero confidence that, with such a force on standby all the time, departments will resist usi…

> Absolutely not. The military does not handle issues like this on US soil. In what sense are the police not military?

In the literal sense. Police like to blur the line by calling everybody else 'civilians', but they are civilians too.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#269

Post by thaumasiotes »

ceejayoz wrote: post #254
thaumasiotes wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely not. The military does not handle issues like this on US soil. In what sense are the police not military?

Police exist (in theory) to enforce law. The military does not. Edge cases like MPs and the Coast Guard exist, and some countries blur the line more than others. The Paris fire department, for example, is a military branch for historical reasons.

The military also exists to enforce law.

The police are in exactly the same business as the military, enforcing compliance through violence. Using a different word doesn't make them a different thing.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#270

Post by alisonkisk »

slg wrote: post #155
tomschlick wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless, there is no need, ever, for police to have the automatic weapons, APCs, and "non-lethal" weapons they are buying from the military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout is the catalyst for all of this. Police were heavily outgunned. The FBI would take hours to get there as FBI tactical teams are not in most cities and are not on call like normal SWAT teams are. APCs are purely defensiv…

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout is the catalyst for all of this. Police were heavily outgunned. And yet the only two people who died were the two bank robbers. It sounds like the police were able to eventually take control of the situation even while heavily outgunned. So does adding more firepower on the side of police actually provide more safety when this is an example of the worst case sc…

Seems unlikely, since 1033 started 7 years earlier, in tandem with the military buildup for Operation Desert Storm.
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