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Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

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Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of places. Mexico for example where the narcos have capabilities similar to the mexican military and In brazil we have little kids with automatic rifles roaming the favelas.

You missed the "developed countries" dogwhistle, which usually means rich and white nations.

It specifically does mean rich, but includes China and Japan and South Korea, which are not white. The description of economic development was specifically to exclude race and political affiliation from the equation while still capturing the relevant metrics -- poverty causes violent crime.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#242

We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings. It might instead be that the more aggressive police departments are the ones that more seek to purchase military equipment, and the more aggressive police are the ones with more killings. I tend to think that's the case. Regardless, there is…

I think these statistics tell us everything we need to know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

The right to a fair trial in the USA has been utterly destroyed by police who seek to be judge, jury, and executioner.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#243
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or departments with more military gear are in more risky areas where the use of force is more likely. I could not read the article because it is blocked for me.

"Risky areas" sounds like a dog whistle to me, much like "bad neighborhood"... When you think of these "risky areas", what do the people within them look like? Do they deserve to have militarized police literally rolling armored tank-like vehicles through their neighborhood, and what sort of impact do you think that has on them?

I honestly do not know about how they look like. What I meant was higher rate of crime against people and police.

But to give you an idea what might turn police force to want to have more serious weapons. Just few days ago there was a 2 hours long attack on the local police station in France. Attackers used fireworks. Police did not respond though and I do not have an idea why. Perhaps they were outnumbered and outgunned.

In such situation, where criminals do what they like, would you prefer your police force have some serious weapons or you would think that it would be an overreaction?

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#244
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good point. Our largest and most targeted cities (e.g. NYC, DC) absolutely should have dedicated heavy weapons troops on call to respond in real time to a terrorist attack. Their equipment and training should be separate from workaday policing. Then most of the rest of the country just needs normal policing, because realistically, they're so unlikely to be a target. Look at all the big terrorist attacks that h…

> Our largest and most targeted cities (e.g. NYC, DC) absolutely should have dedicated heavy weapons troops on call to respond in real time to a terrorist attack. Absolutely not. The military does not handle issues like this on US soil. (If you meant something else by "troops", please choose your words more carefully.) I have zero confidence that, with such a force on standby all the time, departments will resist usi…

Yes, I meant militarized police by "troops", exactly what the article is talking about. Though here in NYC I do routinely see heavily armed actual troops (they might be National Guard? not sure), at Penn Station, Grand Central, and airports.

No, I'm not referring to 9/11. However, over the past several decades, there have been several attempted/successful terrorist attacks by people on the ground. At some point you do need someone heavily armed enough to take out an active ongoing attack, like what we saw in Mumbai or Paris. The odds of it happening again within the next decade are not that small. Do you really do nothing to even try to be ready to respond to it? I just don't think most voters are going to be willing to accept it.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A million people could defend it, but it doesn't change the fact that the act only happened once.

The police in Atlanta, collectively, made a point to hit home how OK it was and how any else of them would do the same thing, with police management saying such under oath during her trial. They don't get a "only once" pass under those circumstances.

That still doesn't mean you can talk about the act as if it has happened multiple times.

Maybe if you changed your original post to "Police support throwing grenades..." and not "Police throw grenades..."

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> APCs are purely defensive. Many APC's seem to have significantly powerful weaponry, compared to civilian/infantry weapons anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier In Western nations, APCs are frequently armed with the .50 calibre M2 Browning machine gun, 7.62mm FN MAG, or 40mm Mk 19 grenade launcher. In former Eastern bloc nations, the KPV, PKT and NSV machine guns are common options.

You're looking at actual APCs. OP was saying APC but police actually get the MRAP varients similar to the Lenco Bearcats that they buy. Those have no offensive weapons. Its just armor and bullet resistant glass on a heavy truck frame. Thats it.

Shh! There’s too many truth-facts in your comment. It doesn’t allow the horde to continue raging.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#247

We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings. It might instead be that the more aggressive police departments are the ones that more seek to purchase military equipment, and the more aggressive police are the ones with more killings. I tend to think that's the case. Regardless, there is…

"We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings."

True. Still, when the only tool you have is a hammer, soon or later every problem will look like a nail.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police in Atlanta, collectively, made a point to hit home how OK it was and how any else of them would do the same thing, with police management saying such under oath during her trial. They don't get a "only once" pass under those circumstances.

That still doesn't mean you can talk about the act as if it has happened multiple times. Maybe if you changed your original post to "Police support throwing grenades..." and not "Police throw grenades..."

Multiple police in Atlanta do through multiple grenades. They just only threw it into crib with an infant in it once. But made sure we all knew that they think they did nothing wrong by doing that, and would absolutely do it again under the same circumstances.

When you go out of your way, under oath, to say that your organization systemically didn't learn from the mistake and would absolutely do it again, an "only once" defense doesn't hold any water.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#249
post #225
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest explanation that adequately explains the observation tends to be correct. There's really no need for any conspiracy here, support for "law and order" has been a winning political strategy for decades. Meanwhile, getting the department of defense to increase the number of MRAPs they order by a fraction of a percent seems like it could be achieved in other, easier ways. It's good to be skeptical, but at so…

Conspiracy is quite a strong word! My take on the neutral explanation would be is to assume that it's like every other policy -- about a dozen people with varying motivations had to support it, and then a few more motivations got added by PR people, and by whoever doesn't want it to stop. Policies "pretty obviously" driven by exactly one factor are extremely unusual.

You are talking about a group of powerful politicians crafting legislation with a secret ulterior motive to transfer money to an unknown entity or entities in the military industrial complex. That's a pretty textbook conspiracy.

If you dig into the line items I'm sure there will be some compromises to get the maximum number of votes, but that's a far cry from an elaborate scheme to line the pockets of the military industrial complex.

It's not hard to imagine this bill passing on its own merits without heavy lobbying. No one in the 90s was going to want to be painted as anti-cop, pro-drug, pro-terrorist, and/or pro-government waste. Even if we now see the terrible consequences of police militarization, and many still don't, that's hindsight. At the height of the war on drugs, as children who grew up hearing about serial killers in the 70s were now worrying about their own young kids, taking the weapons that had been lying in warehouses since Nam and putting them to good use protecting the streets here at home had wide bipartisan support. It costs very little, makes people feel safe, and makes a lot of politicians look good.

Again it is good to question the official narrative, but your hypothesis needs to be falsifiable. You will always be able to go a layer deeper and say "oh well they did it this way to make it harder to see their real motive" but without evidence there is no reason to continue going down that rabbit hole.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#250

We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings. It might instead be that the more aggressive police departments are the ones that more seek to purchase military equipment, and the more aggressive police are the ones with more killings. I tend to think that's the case. Regardless, there is…

> Regardless, there is no need, ever, for police to have the automatic weapons, APCs, and "non-lethal" weapons they are buying from the military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout is the catalyst for all of this. Police were heavily outgunned. The FBI would take hours to get there as FBI tactical teams are not in most cities and are not on call like normal SWAT teams are. APCs are purely defensiv…

> Police were heavily outgunned.

I believe the problem wasn't so much that they were "outgunned," but that they lacked longer range weapons of any kind. So that problem could be entirely solved by issuing some fraction of officers hunting rifles to carry in their patrol car's trunk. No need to kit them out like infantry or give them APCs.

The police's advantage in numbers and organization would take care of almost any other disadvantage WRT weaponry.

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