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Removing Holocaust Denial Content

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671–680 of 823 posts

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#671

How are they going to determine what is HD? Some scholars get labeled denialists because they have different estimates for the number of Jews killed in concentration camps. Seems worrying to have FB moderators determining what's acceptable historical debate and what is wrongthink.

Holocaust denial is banned in Germany (same as swastikas by the way). It works really well. The only people complaining are literally people trying to twist perception of the arguably worst crime in the history of humanity, to make Germany look like a victim. FB is clearly doing the right thing here. Free speech has limits.

> Free speech has limits.

Not in America, it does not. You folks have "hate speech" laws, banned symbols, banned words, banned expressions, and used to have banned video games, music, and movies. The core of your legal system has the concept of "honor"/"dignity", which is inherently subjective.

The justification is always a variant of your thought, saying that it will only affect "bad people", with the very definition of that being heavily influenced by the aforementioned concepts.

Germans tend to defend the concept of filing charges against an individual for the crime of "insulting them" with similar logic - it's generally a nasty thing to do and only "bad people" will do it, therefore, it shall be punishable under the law.

Any limits to free speech are by definition on the famous "slippery slope". As others have called out, once the legal precedent is set, nothing stops politicians to expand it at their will, given that it is based on subjective judgment - history can be a great teacher - and I'd like to remind you that a much harsher version of the current German "social media hate speech" law just made its way through international media earlier this year. This law was justified with "a rise in right wing extremism".

I've said it before, I'll say it again: The ACLU, an arguably left-leaning organization, has famously defended KKK member's 1st amendment rights for those very reasons. They don't argue about the content - as an analogy to the HD topic, it should be easy to debunk with massive amounts of historical evidence - but rather about fundamental human (and, in the case of the United States, constitutional) rights.

Naturally, all those points apply to governmental censorship and not to a private entity. That being said, I don't believe in limits to free speech.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#672

Admirable move. I think Facebook (and all its properties), Twitter, and other hyper-connected social networks must show a healthy level of intolerance towards groups and ideologies that are beyond reason and recall, especially when those said groups are overtly and unmistakably intolerant themselves. This heavy-handedness isn't an encroachment on free speech but a necessary impediment to keep the spirit of free speec…

"where the tolerant voices aren't drained out by the relentlessness and irrationality of the intolerant"

It's ridiculous to say that abhorrent Holocaust deniers are drowning out tolerant voices. They have no place in mainstream media, so they are forced into some weird corner of FB. I have never personally encountered a Holocaust-denier opinion anywhere (including the internet), probably because I've never looked for one. I only know they exist because they are brought up as weirdos, like an evil version of a flat-earther.

That would be like saying some transcontinental ham radio morse code is drowning out your music on FM radio. It just doesn't interfere; you have to have a crazy antenna to even get the signal.

Let's not pretend that this somehow fits into the spirit of free speech. This is about making it hard for people to find these crazy messages even if they are looking for them.

You can debate that. Maybe some messages are too dangerous -- like DIY H-bombs or something. But arguing that is clearly in contradiction with the spirit of free speech.

(Note: I am not claiming that it's illegal censorship. FB is a private company and can do what it wants.)

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#673
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This heavy-handedness isn't an encroachment on free speech but a necessary impediment to keep the spirit of free speech and free society intact, one where the tolerant voices aren't drained out by the relentlessness and irrationality of the intolerant. What is tolerance? You can't tolerate something if you agree with it. Tolerance means putting up with things with which you disagree. This is an encroachment on free…

The really quick and dirty version: I can't tolerate (neo) Nazis because they want to harm queer people, Jews, disabled people etc. The people they want to harm can't do anything to stop being targeted by (neo) Nazis. Nazis can stop being Nazis and then I'll start tolerating them. It doesn't matter if a Jew stops practising Judaism they will be targeted. It doesn't matter if a gay person is in the closet, they will b…

The idea that an attribute has to be involuntary to be tolerated is not a good one. In determining whether or not something should be tolerated, it being involuntary may be a contributing factor but cannot be required. If Nazis decided that they would not kill any Jews who renounced Judaism, or gay people who didn't engage in homosexual sex, how much less repulsive would their ideology be?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#674
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no strictly historical perspective that leads to denialism. It is fundamentally tied to antisemitism and providing ammunition to modern day fascists and racists.

Sure, but surely you can be a fascist without also being violent? I mean surely you can be a communist without supporting violent revolutions...

I don't believe that you can. The core belief system of modern neonazis is the protection of the white race by excluding non-whites. It takes violence to remove non-whites from their nations. And then, because of the one-drop rule, the ratio of white people will always drop across time. This necessitates violent responses. All neonazis agree on the goal and there is just one means to possibly achieve that goal: ethnic violence.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#675
post #153
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: > This heavy-handedness isn't an encroachment on free speech but a necessary impediment to keep the spirit of free speech and free society intact, one where the tolerant voices aren't drained out by the relentlessness and irrationality of the intolerant. Could easily be used to ban Islam on Facebook. Or Scientology. Or far left / far right governments. Or Antifa / Proud Boys / other vigilante groups. Or popular…

To me a wholesale ban on a religion, whose practitioners vary wildly seems like a completely different thing. Holocaust denial is pretty specific in comparison.

Why is religion different from other views?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What % of a religion would need to be, say, anti-gay, before we deem the whole thing problematic and ban it from facebook? The more I investigate "where to draw the line", the more I'm convinced we aren't capable of doing so in a just fashion.

100% is fine. That's the thing with neonazis. They are 100% in agreement about ethnic violence. It isn't a side effect of their belief system. It is the core of their belief system that undesirable people should be murdered.

Which neo nazi groups are currently a problem in the US?

What left wing groups would you consider banning?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not. I argue that the public putting pressure on individuals who spread bad ideas to stop doing that The whole point is that there's not a good way to determine what ideas are "bad ideas" apart from ongoing public debate. > up to and including the employer terminating that employment relationship---is part of the healthy public immune system to bad ideas and antisocial behavior The obvious problem is that "emp…

> it does at least as much harm to "good ideas" as to "bad ideas" If that's the case, then one is assuming that the public is incapable of discerning good ideas from bad ideas. Calling that into question calls all of American democracy into question. At that point, why even leave leadership up to the voters? A dictatorship, oligarchy, or plutocracy would be wiser if the public really can't determine for themselves wh…

> If that's the case, then one is assuming that the public is incapable of discerning good ideas from bad ideas.

I'm assuming that the mob can't, and that even a democracy struggles; however, given enough debate good ideas will rise to the top more often than not. The viability of this kind of debate depends on free-speech ideals, however--our debate is presently very toxic in no small part to the fear that cancel culture inspires.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#678
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what it's arguing for, but rather than Facebook should have a consistent policy.

If so I'd encourage them to rewrite the post to make that clearer.

Judging from the replies it's clear to most people

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The Most Intolerant Wins" Except Taleb's thesis is not supported by history whatsoever. The past three centuries have had ups and downs, but overall there's been a remarkable and consistent global trend towards tolerance, liberalism, and democracy. This didn't happen because intolerant groups decided to let up on their zealotry. It didn't even happen because intolerant ideas were violently suppressed. (In almost e…

> Except Taleb's thesis is not supported by history whatsoever. Do you think the major religions got to be the size they are because people though their story was cute? > totalitarian ideologies like fascism and Marxism consistently failed to gain traction WWII and their aftermath shows exactly the contrary.

> Do you think the major religions got to be the size they are because people though their story was cute?

Considering that the world's largest religion's central tenet is "turn the other cheek", I don't know if this is exactly a compelling argument for the primacy of intolerance.

It's almost certainly the case that the major world religions, as they're practiced in 2000 AD, are certainly much more liberal and tolerant than their Bronze Age counterparts. The arc of the moral universe is long, but over time it bends towards justice.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amusing that you propose the vigorous use of force (“Ban Them. All of them. Today”) to eliminate voices you deem fascist. If you feel this strongly about the harm of holocaust denial, have you considered working to convince people the holocaust did in fact happen? It’s pretty easy—-plenty of evidence exists to suggest it happened and all attempts I’ve encountered of people make a case otherwise have been debunk…

To be fair, social media does facilitate both social contagion and echo chamber formation, the combination of which can form very fastidious communities. Its not a simple issue, but I don't think putting this power in the hands of a few for-profit corporations is the right solution.

I'd rather see Facebook take steps to solve this problem than to start carving out lists of topics that are forbidden. Is there a way they can change the medium to encourage deeper thought, more meaningful conversation, and less virality? Maybe that's a better way to dampen the spread of hatred
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