My grandparent's families were mostly wiped out. We lost over 300 on my Dad's side, and there's no number for how many we lost on my Mom's side - everyone was killed. I grew up listening to my Grandmother screaming when she had panic attacks and night terrors, and the stories we heard were horrific. I'm so so glad that Facebook has done this. Maybe it hurts freedom of speech, and maybe it's overreach - I don't know -…
Removing Holocaust Denial Content
621–630 of 823 posts
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#622Earlier quoted context omitted.
Saying what stereotypes about jews are is different from pushing these stereotypes as truth.
Both are free speech, right? Also, I asked a very clear question and requested a clear yes/no. What is your answer?
Promoting these views as truths should be treated as the hate speech it is. Which should not be covered by free speech, IMHO.
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#623To save free speech, we have to destroy free speech. In the future, some historian is going to write the seminal work on the decline and dissolution of the United States - and there's going to be an entire chapter dedicated to social media.
Since its inception facebook has not had completely full free speech. It doesn't allow targeted bullying, scamming, or any other way of causing material harm to another person. All this is doing is admitting genocide denial causes material harm to another person, which I'm sure you would agree with.
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#624Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point is the employer wouldn't fire them apart from the mob's pressure. Moreover, mobs are famously fickle and they're happy to descend upon anyone, guilty or not (even irrespective of whether or not today's target was part of the mob yesterday). I really hope we can agree that mob rule is strictly worse than rule of law.
The rule of law doesn't exclude an employer deciding an employee is more trouble than they're worth outside of some very specific situations (class protection, etc.). Within the constraint of the rule of law, a group of people can organize to petition an employer to remove an employee for behavior A, and the employer can evaluate A and decide whether the group's claims are untrue, A should be removed for the behavior…
"Rule of law" refers to "judgment in a court on the basis of a codified law" as opposed to "mob rule" where the mob takes it upon itself to determine who is guilty. My point is that I hope we can agree that the mob is bad at determining who is guilty and what an appropriate sentence ought to be, and this is why we have rule of law.
> a group of people can organize to petition an employer to remove an employee for behavior A, and the employer can evaluate A and decide whether the group's claims are untrue, A should be removed for the behavior, or it's not worth the time to decide and A should be removed to quiet the group. Good employers won't do 3...
The problem, of course, is that employers have a fiduciary responsibility that reliably overrides their moral responsibility in practice. And naturally, cancel culture depends on this basic fact, or else it would be ineffective. If employers were able to resist the mob, then the mob wouldn't get its way. If the mob and the employer were really righteous then the employer would terminate the errant employee without pressure from a mob (there would be no point).
Personally I think we should make it harder for employers to terminate their employees for their private free speech, such that mobs can "protest" employee behavior but they can't even implicitly threaten the employee's livelihood and access to health care. If you remove the mob's ability to control one's employment, then they can shout into the Twitter void to their heart's content with my full blessing.
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#625Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Facebook is a virality engine. How do you get content that's appealing to the widest variety of people shoved into their faces? This is a very good way to put it. I haven't figured what the best stance would be yet, but it's clear that the old concerns about censorship are quite outdated. Almost no one can make information disappear, and instead, what modern platforms can do (as you've so well put it) is restrict or…
I'm a free speech absolutist in that I think governments should not be able to punish speech outside of direct and imminent attempts to induce others to commit crimes, false reports of dangerous situations that imminently cause real dangerous situations, and the like. I don't extend that to private platforms. Facebook should be free to host or not host whatever it likes, arbitrarily. What's becoming problematic is th…
I know this is part of the point you're making, but that ship has sailed long ago.
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#626Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you don't like the way other people are thinking, you have to have a conversation with them and try to change their views the hard way. Again, that’s not how people work. “The marketplace of ideas” is an idealism, a mini-utopia. It does not account for known and unpatched vulnerabilities in human psychology - and a fix from the vendor is not expected any time soon.
It is how people work, as evidenced over and over again by a widening view of compassion for others. Just look at the past 20 years and the success of the gay rights movement. Views changed because of millions of one-on-one conversations between people who disagreed on gay marriage. No censorship was required for progress. In fact, censorship would have been counterproductive, as I believe it is here. It's no coincid…
That is not actually how it happened.
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#627Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is the government doing this, or is Facebook doing this? Free Speech is only a concern when it's the state, not when it's a private entity, no matter how much HN tries to conflate the two.
> Free Speech is only a concern when it's the state, not when it's a private entity Why? Even though FB cannot literally muzzle me, it is explicitly trying to be the singular point of online social interaction in an increasingly digital world. To the extent that it is successful, its decisions on what content is and is not acceptable affect us all, far more strongly than any government censor, regardless of how right…
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#628Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is effectively zero barrier to switching social networks. "Friends" that could only be accessed through Facebook I realized long ago were people I didn't actually care to talk to.
This is not true for billions of people for whom Facebook is the web. Their businesses run on it, their family only communicate through it, and giving it up would mean disconnecting, essentially, from their entire world.
Sure some businesses are forced on to the platform to communicate with a subset of customers but it's extremely rare that they aren't on all the social platforms AND have their own website.
Family members that are on Facebook have phone numbers and are on other platforms. Maybe you can't spam them with links to every conspiracy website you come across or an endless stream of your kid without them becoming annoyed, but you absolutely can communicate with them. Facebook has only stayed relevant because of the natural lag in popular websites (older folks always get on late) and by buying platforms people have switched to in recent years likes WhatsApp and Instagram. But people do switch and people also are on multiple platforms
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#629Earlier quoted context omitted.
You may want to check out the Indian supreme court opinion on the topic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_India
Other than one dissenting view in 2014, that page indeed does document decades of enforcement of the Indian penal code, which is very clear, and cited on that page. "Whoever (a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever,…
Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content
#630If we ban this speech then how can we argue against these ideas? The photos, evidence, eyewitness accounts demonstrate the Holocaust is undeniable. BUT we know that there are people that say the world is flat, moon landing was faked, etc. If anything I’d like to engage these people and verbally smash them. If anything, Facebook should make posts like this unblockable, so people can’t defriend or block people with who…
Technologists, including what seems to be a large portion of HN, believe that those they view as beneath them are too stupid to evaluate arguments, so they've accepted the idea of having a ministry of truth. Rather than elevate their "untermensch", their egos drive them to exercise control. If you can't educate people to separate fact from fiction, that is ultimately the fault of intellectuals. It's one thing to teac…