Live data from Hacker News

Removing Holocaust Denial Content

about.fb.com

601–610 of 823 posts

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#601
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tolerance means putting up with things with which you disagree. True, but it kind of crosses the line when something denies well documented fact and tries to discredit reality itself. This "gamification" of alternative realities is insanely toxic to democracy and society.

>"...and tries to discredit reality itself..." So you are saying they will remove the Earth is Flat, The God had created world in 7 days and other similar things?

You can't prove God didn't create the world in 7 days any more than you can't prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster did that 15 minutes ago.

That the Earth is not flat is easily and conclusively provable.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#602
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook isn't a collection of books, and it isn't a collection of speech: the speech is a side effect. Facebook is a virality engine. How do you get content that's appealing to the widest variety of people shoved into their faces? The popularity of a President almost always goes up by starting a war, because the American public loves war. It's how Bush Jr. got the popular vote after losing it so miserably the first…

> Facebook is a virality engine. How do you get content that's appealing to the widest variety of people shoved into their faces? Couldn't someone have said the same thing of the printing press in the year 1440?

The printing press lowered the cost of making copies considerably but it was still not cheap. Options for widespread distribution of the copies you made were very limited. On top of that the literacy rate was only around 30%.

You have to get rid of those kinds of barriers before you can get anything like what we are seeing today, where some crazy idea with no evidence to support it can quickly spread far and wide.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tolerance means putting up with things with which you disagree. True, but it kind of crosses the line when something denies well documented fact and tries to discredit reality itself. This "gamification" of alternative realities is insanely toxic to democracy and society.

> it kind of crosses the line when something denies well documented fact and tries to discredit reality itself Are you suggesting that news organizations should no longer broadcast false statements made by word leaders, such as Trump, who continuously and repeatedly denies well documented facts? Or are you suggesting that these restrictions on free speech should only apply on regular people, whose lowly opinions shou…

> Are you suggesting that news organizations should no longer broadcast false statements made by word leaders, such as Trump

That would be helpful or, if they need to, to point where exactly the so-called leader is incorrect.

In fact, abusing elected office to provide materially false and misleading information should be an impeachable offense and a crime similar to perjury.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#604
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All hate groups seem dated, sadly hate doesn't seem to just sort of become a thing of the past :( As far as you question goes to some extent yes. I wouldn't want to see some sort of litmus test for groups that clearly aren't purely a hate group. A specific christian identity group (randomly made up here) that is hateful, no problem with removing them. All Christian groups, no.

> for groups that clearly aren't purely a hate group. As an atheist, I do find them a hate group. Are you going to declare militant atheism intolerant, or religion?

I'm not at all sure why simply being an atheist would be a hate group.

I don't know what "militant atheism" is though.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tolerance means putting up with things with which you disagree. True, but it kind of crosses the line when something denies well documented fact and tries to discredit reality itself. This "gamification" of alternative realities is insanely toxic to democracy and society.

But then they just look stupid, no? Like flat earthers, anti-vaxxers etc.

Don't they already?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#606
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Holocaust indirectly lead to (a the abolishment of centuries old anti-semitic laws (from Magna Carta) (b the establishment of the state of Israel. I'm not implying 'they won', but they are in a better place now than they were at the beginning of the century.

Almost like certain aspects may have been exaggerated or have been outright lies.

I know it's not what they're going for, but sometimes I wish HN would follow FB's example.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#607

Censoring opposition has not once yielded positive results in the history of the world. My personal conspiracy theory is that policies like these are subversively being used to push HD since no one could possibly be stupid enough to think this would help.

This is not "opposition", this is hate.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No worries. The 1st amendment is a legal right and protection from violation by the government. Free speech ideals go further and are generally the belief that problems are best overcome by more speech--if someone has an abhorrent idea, let them express it so others can refute it and let the audience make up its own mind. Free speech proponents would argue that censoring the idea will look bad to those in the audienc…

OK, I think I'm following. Your notion of free speech ideals isn't bound to a specific law like the 1st amendment and is more abstract. (I'll note that it sounds like your notion of free speech here actually seems to cover less speech than the 1st amendment, since you're explicitly excluding harassment and threats which the 1st amendment may cover. Of course, that's determining what is legal and illegal while free sp…

> I'll note that it sounds like your notion of free speech here actually seems to cover less speech than the 1st amendment, since you're explicitly excluding harassment and threats which the 1st amendment may cover. Of course, that's determining what is legal and illegal while free speech ideals are more abstract, so that's kind of an apples-and-oranges comparison)

Right, "free-speech" is a subset of "speech", and it aspires to optimize for the volume of free speech, which is to say that as long as people are free to threaten and harass, others will feel uncomfortable expressing their views. Of course, if those in power agree with you, the intolerant person will say "all is well", but the problems are that (1) sometimes we are wrong and (2) sometimes the person in power isn't going to agree with us and we find ourselves on the wrong end of our own speech-restricting precedents. Those of use who have lived in liberal democracies most of our lives may find it hard to believe that an illiberalism with which we disagree could ever come to rule, and so we take free speech for granted.

> You reject using Cancel Culture to silence those expressing abhorrent ideas. But what if someone isn't expressing a political view or ideology, but is instead performing bad actions? Like using racial slurs and insulting minorities, or shouting sexual harassment at women walking down the street?

As previously mentioned, harassment (sexual or targeted racial slurs) are already harassment. Note that "I think $race is inferior" isn't an abhorrent idea that falls within the realm of free speech, but "Get out of our neighborhood, you $slur" is harassment.

> As you mentioned, threats and harassment aren't protected under the banner of free speech ideals. And, depending on the circumstances, those actions may be protected under the 1st Amendment, so are not illegal. Do you object to using Cancel Culture against those who are performing threats and harassment?

Yes, I object. We should criticize the cancel culture movement; fighting cancel culture with cancel culture is self defeating. In general, I would advocate for legal protections that would neuter cancel culture (and provide a host of additional social benefits), such as decoupling health insurance from employment and strengthening employment protections. In many cases, harassment is already illegal, but proving harassment is difficult and this difficulty is exactly what cancel culture thrives on, so we need better tools--if an employer has to pay an expensive severance, they'll be less willing to cede to a mob. We could also prohibit them from terminating employees on the basis of their free speech altogether (provided of course that the "speech" in question isn't the employee representing the company in an official capacity). I'm not sure exactly which of these policies would be the most effective, but I'm confident that there's a lot of opportunity.

> As a follow up, what about abhorrent views being put into practice, such as the CEO of a company instituting racial segregation in their stores?

This is already illegal, and free speech ideals are perfectly consistent with the laws that condemn this behavior (instituting racial segregation isn't speech of any kind).

> If someone in a position of power publicly expresses abhorrent views, and under Refutation Culture we should voice an alternative viewpoint, can that take the form of a protest? If we march around that person's office holding picket signs refuting their viewpoint, would that be considered coercive?

I'm not sure what "Refutation Culture" is, but if you're talking about free speech ideals, then yes, it's perfectly fine to protest as long as your protest isn't harassing or threatening. There's nothing inherently coercive about expressing one's perspective; it's when there's a threat (either explicit or implicit) or when it's outright harassment (you're petitioning a politician in their workplace--this is healthy democratic behavior as long as the protests and messaging are peaceful in nature; petitioning someone's home or shouting death/rape threats constitute harassment IMO).

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's get specific. Should this be allowed, yes or no: >> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Jews_in_literat... Edit: point of this is to get to the reality of what's said. If you think this is too unpleasant, 5 downvotes and I'll delete it.

Saying what stereotypes about jews are is different from pushing these stereotypes as truth.

Both are free speech, right?

Also, I asked a very clear question and requested a clear yes/no. What is your answer?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#610
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"destroy free speech" You will find that Holocaust denying specifically has been banned by law from a number of European countries for a very long time. And free speech is still doing just fine. This might not be the slippery slope you believe it is.

Free speech simply does not exist in a number of (perhaps any?) European countries.

I believe the citizens of those countries might respectfully disagree.

The US is somewhat absolutist relative to the global average on this topic (and even the US isn't complete freedom of speech---pornography law exists, as do various extremely tight constraints on pedophilia imagery).

Post reply on HN