Removing Holocaust Denial Content • Hacker News Board

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#451

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

beisner wrote: post #257

logicalmonster wrote: post #176

Digital book burning 2.0. “But it’s ok, we’re the good guys and doing it for the right reasons”, says every tyrant ever. Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment. It’s the worst precedent you can ever set. I’ll try and give an example here that might be safe to give because it rips the Republican Wing of the Military Industrial Complex. If Facebook was one of the world’s primar…

Yawn. Facebook is not the public square, nor should it be. Imo it’s also the wrong platform for political engagement (because it structurally amplifies the wrong kinds of engagement), and I couldn’t care less what editorial power they exert. There are other, real public forums (where speech is constitutionally protected) where fringe groups can peddle their ideas.

Indeed. People use Facebook because "the public square," as it were, is cantankerous, unfriendly, and shitty.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#452

Post by throwaway_pdp09 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

konjin wrote: post #430

Certhas wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a typical slight of hand in these discussions. We are talking about deeply intolerant, bad faith actors, and you substitute this with "censoring opinions outside the mainstream". This is deeply dishonest by you. We are not talking about removing peoples right to use a platform because they are out of the mainstream and we disagree with them. That is NOT the reason. There is plenty of non-mainstream opinion ar…

>This is a typical slight of hand in these discussions. We are talking about deeply intolerant, bad faith actors, and you substitute this with "censoring opinions outside the mainstream". NO U. That aught to be enough for the argument to be closed, but since we like to pretend we're better than that: how can you tell that someone holds bad faith views? I do not have a machine to peer into the soul of man, neither do…

Let's get specific. Should this be allowed, yes or no:

>>

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Jews_in_literat...

Edit: point of this is to get to the reality of what's said. If you think this is too unpleasant, 5 downvotes and I'll delete it.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#453

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

devthrowawy wrote: post #400

logicalmonster wrote: post #176

Digital book burning 2.0. “But it’s ok, we’re the good guys and doing it for the right reasons”, says every tyrant ever. Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment. It’s the worst precedent you can ever set. I’ll try and give an example here that might be safe to give because it rips the Republican Wing of the Military Industrial Complex. If Facebook was one of the world’s primar…

Just get some popcorn and watch fb bleed itself dry before it realizes that trying to create a 'safe space' is completely counter productive.

Users seem willing to pay (with their attention) to safe spaces.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#454

Post by ephimetheus » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

logicalmonster wrote: post #176

Digital book burning 2.0. “But it’s ok, we’re the good guys and doing it for the right reasons”, says every tyrant ever. Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment. It’s the worst precedent you can ever set. I’ll try and give an example here that might be safe to give because it rips the Republican Wing of the Military Industrial Complex. If Facebook was one of the world’s primar…

Clearly there are and need to be limits to free speech. Holocaust denial is such a case.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#455

Post by dang » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

oxygenmolds wrote: post #197

Good, I like being told what to think so that I don't have to have any opinions of my own. This frees up my mind to focus on consuming new products.

We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. If you'd please stop creating accounts to do that with, we'd be grateful, as we're trying for something else here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#456

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

jdpedrie wrote: post #284

whoisjuan wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Freedom of speech as defined in the constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Internet speech is not the same as freedom of speech. Facebook is a private platfor…

This is silly. Of course Facebook's censorship is censorship. It is true that they are not bound by the first amendment in the same way in which Congress (and via incorporation the states) are bound, but freedom of speech is a concept which exists independent of the first amendment guarantee to its enjoyment.

[deleted]

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#457

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #405

throwaway894345 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancel culture is very often concerted petitioning of someone's employer into terminating someone's employment (harassment) or the threat of the same (recall the Hispanic utility company employee who was terminated for making the 'ok' sign inadvertently or the data scientist who was terminated for Tweeting a prominent black academic's research on the efficacy of nonviolent protests or the journalist who was harassed…

If petitioning your employer to fire you for something you said works, maybe you said something that your employer would fire you over? That's, again, not harassment and threats, it's your employer using freedom of association to deny guilt by proxy for spreading someone else's lies, threats, and harassments.

I mean, I'm kind of surprised after this back-and-forth that it isn't as clear cut as you seem to think it is. I mean, I've seen both of you make pretty reasoned arguments, and the fact that you still disagree I would at least think proves the point that people who disagree with your definition of free speech (or, rather, your definition of "cancel culture" and your definition of "harassment and threats") are not crazy lunatics.

I mean, let's be honest: getting someone blackballed from gainful employment sure seems like harassment for any reasonable definition of the term. You just seem to believe that there are sometimes good reasons for that to occur.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#458

Post by glasss » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #298

Regardless of my opinion on holocaust denialism, I'll never be comfortable with such a large communications platform having the power to decide what ideas are acceptable and unacceptable to discuss. Like all of us, I hold a number of opinions that many believe are incorrect or harmful so I feel the need to defend the principles of freedom of speech regardless of the issue at hand. As for this policy change, I wonder…

> I'll never be comfortable with such a large communications platform having the power...

It's their platform, they have the power to do whatever they want with it.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#459

Post by sjreese » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

The Bill of Rights and the Civil Rights Act - must be respected by corporate interests and their employees. In the USA the powerful wishes to dictate how much advertisement I have access to and from whom. The freedom of speech and freedom of association are not for compromise from anyone. when left on their own FACEBOOK discriminates (title two) and seeks to influence elections (by unchecked data collection) to that end, it now seeks to control your programming for their foreign interests, and in the process remove your bill of rights and access to the Civil Rights Act (under the cover of their absolute truth ) any American who is loyal to the Bill of Rights should end the Tierney of unknown elites and their attempt to deny your constitutional rights once and for all.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#460

Post by jonahx » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #405

throwaway894345 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancel culture is very often concerted petitioning of someone's employer into terminating someone's employment (harassment) or the threat of the same (recall the Hispanic utility company employee who was terminated for making the 'ok' sign inadvertently or the data scientist who was terminated for Tweeting a prominent black academic's research on the efficacy of nonviolent protests or the journalist who was harassed…

If petitioning your employer to fire you for something you said works, maybe you said something that your employer would fire you over? That's, again, not harassment and threats, it's your employer using freedom of association to deny guilt by proxy for spreading someone else's lies, threats, and harassments.

> If petitioning your employer to fire you for something you said works, maybe you said something that your employer would fire you over?

Possibly, but there is another possibility which also occurs with alarming frequency:

The employer, feeling bullied and afraid of bad press, demonstrations, etc, makes a calculated risk vs reward decision: Is keeping this employee worth the (possibly existential) risk to my business?

That is, the employer may personally have zero problem with what you said, but fire you anyway because "it's just not worth it." The decision to fire is the result of both cowardice by the employer and coercion by the petitioners, even if that coercion is not an explicit threat.