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Removing Holocaust Denial Content

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Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#261

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

josephcsible wrote: post #245
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and Goebbels and Stalin were both part of the government . Why is so hard to understand that government limitations on free speech are fundamentally different from private ones? Freedom of the press means being able to print what you want, not being able to compel the printer. Facebook doesn't have to be complicit in publishing speech it finds repugnant, and why should it?

> Why is so hard to understand that government limitations on free speech are fundamentally different from private ones? Because Facebook wields more power than most countries' governments do. This would almost certainly be a lot less upsetting if it were a smaller site doing it.

That's a nice soundbite you've got there, but what does it actually mean?

Facebook can imprison people? Fine them? Revoke their permission to travel? Fire them from their jobs? Decide their contractual disputes? Determine the taxes they should pay?

None of the above?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#262

Post by realmod »

Vaslo wrote: post #201

If we ban this speech then how can we argue against these ideas? The photos, evidence, eyewitness accounts demonstrate the Holocaust is undeniable. BUT we know that there are people that say the world is flat, moon landing was faked, etc. If anything I’d like to engage these people and verbally smash them. If anything, Facebook should make posts like this unblockable, so people can’t defriend or block people with who…

But that is not what is happening instead they feaster inside their bubbles and grow even more convinced and dangerous. It should simply not be tolerated.

"You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into."

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#263

Post by refurb »

duxup wrote: post #78
rednerrus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do we draw the line? Is this a Pacifica kind of issue where we'll know it when we see it?

"especially when those said groups are overtly and unmistakably intolerant themselves" To me that seems like a pretty clear line. Some groups will invariably try to straddle it, but plenty of groups on Facebook make it quite clear their level of hate for others.

Define intolerant. If group A says group B is lying about some historical fact, is that in and of itself intolerance?

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#264

Post by hef19898 »

HashingtheCode wrote: post #164
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I draw the line at hate. If one side wants to destroy me do I have to listen to their arguments?

No you don't have to listen, you can walk away.

Not always. As soon as hate becomes widespread enough walking away besomes impossible. That's why things like Holocaust denial are so dangerous is being left unchecked.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#265

Post by hggythhdtr »

yalogin wrote: post #193

Facebook is hedging hard these past couple weeks. Looks like they have decided that Trump is going to lose and so suddenly decided licking his boots is not worth it, just like Theil did. I don't trust FB is trying to do the right thing, I will only believe that they are doing this to make it seem like they are not targeting trump when they blocked qanon.

Agreed. This sudden flurry of long-called for action is surely in their own self-interest. They're expecting a blue wave and regulations.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#266

Post by jeffreyrogers »

hef19898 wrote: post #226
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Hoffmann Edit: Note that he doesn't deny the holocaust at all, and his estimate is around 4 million. Which is still quite large. I'm not arguing that he is correct, but it seems absurd to call someone saying 4 million Jews were killed a "denialist".

In that case, it wasn't just the total numbers, but also his views on: - Hitler's preeemtive strike against Russia (total Nazi-revesionist BS) - Russia overstating the numbers in their reports on Auschwitz (which goes into the HD direction, as this is a common first step in getting people to believe HD theories).

I don't think your second claim is correct. As far as I understand he believed the Soviet numbers are the most accurate, not that they were overstated.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#267

Post by whateveracct »

maxehmookau wrote: post #254

No Facebook, you don't get to use this as a PR win. This is a bare minimum which should've been done a long time ago. This isn't a free speech issue. Anybody can deny the holocaust, but Facebook should not be profiting from the propagation of fringe and deeply offensive views. There is no justification for doing so. Facebook is not a library and it is not a repository of well-written, peer-reviewed ideas and thoughts…

> This is a bare minimum which should've been done a long time ago.

Agreed. Video games forums in the '00s could do this - why did it take FB so long?

To be fair, Holocaust denial & related ideology was more universally hated back then. It's managed to rebrand as of late into mere contrarianism.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#268

Post by aww_dang »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #180
HashingtheCode wrote: post #148

[flagged]

People are entitled to their own opinions, but Facebook is not required to provide a platform for them if they want to voice them. Same with flat earthers; they are entitled to their opinion, but nobody owes it to them to provide them a platform. I'm not sure if it's classified as hate speech, but it will be classified as fake news and false/misinformation. Keep in mind that the forces behind these "post-fact" trends…

>People are entitled to their own opinions, but Facebook is not required to provide a platform for them...

Agreed. Is this not the purpose of a walled garden? Many people confuse the Internet with FB or other walled gardens. If a free and open Internet was a threat to media gatekeepers, walled gardens have nearly neutralized that threat.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#269

Post by free_rms »

duxup wrote: post #153
nailer wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: > This heavy-handedness isn't an encroachment on free speech but a necessary impediment to keep the spirit of free speech and free society intact, one where the tolerant voices aren't drained out by the relentlessness and irrationality of the intolerant. Could easily be used to ban Islam on Facebook. Or Scientology. Or far left / far right governments. Or Antifa / Proud Boys / other vigilante groups. Or popular…

To me a wholesale ban on a religion, whose practitioners vary wildly seems like a completely different thing. Holocaust denial is pretty specific in comparison.

What % of a religion would need to be, say, anti-gay, before we deem the whole thing problematic and ban it from facebook?

The more I investigate "where to draw the line", the more I'm convinced we aren't capable of doing so in a just fashion.

Re: Removing Holocaust Denial Content

#270

Post by amelius »

logicalmonster wrote: post #176

Digital book burning 2.0. “But it’s ok, we’re the good guys and doing it for the right reasons”, says every tyrant ever. Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment. It’s the worst precedent you can ever set. I’ll try and give an example here that might be safe to give because it rips the Republican Wing of the Military Industrial Complex. If Facebook was one of the world’s primar…

> Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment.

The problem is that you can censor speech by adding more speech (i.e. noise).

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