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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#241

Post by nobody9999 »

koheripbal wrote: post #237
hospadar wrote: post #229

Lots of speculation in the comments is answered by the article itself: - There's little/no evidence that cash bail increases the rate at which people show up for trial - People are (shocker) better able to defend their innocence when they haven't been rotting in jail pre-trial - People are less likely to commit other crimes before trial if they have a shorter stay in jail - Recidivism rates are lower when people spen…

> Recidivism rates are lower when people spend less time in jail This one might just be confirmation bias as lesser sentences may be indicative of less violent criminal behavior. Without knowing what they controlled for, it's hard to accept this one as evidence. The others make sense.

>> Recidivism rates are lower when people spend less time in jail

>This one might just be confirmation bias as lesser sentences may be indicative of less violent criminal behavior. Without knowing what they controlled for, it's hard to accept this one as evidence.

You are misunderstanding GP's point. The data shows that the less time people spend in pretrial detention (not jail/prison after conviction), the less likely they are to re-offend.

And in many cases, folks arrested for really violent crimes aren't offered bail at all.

If someone is arrested for a non-violent offense (petit theft for example) and bail is set at $1,000 and they can't get their hands on $1,000 (because they're poor which is why they're stealing, maybe?) they will rot in jail until the case is adjudicated.

But a wealthy person arrested for beating his wife to death who can afford $50,000 bail can walk out the door and murder his girlfriend while awaiting trial.

Bail just punishes the poor.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#242

Post by nobody9999 »

ldoughty wrote: post #227
jstanley wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but you can't really argue your way around: > This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

If you take a drunk driver to jail to wait out the night.. or a teen caught in a liquor store with a broken window at 3am... Or you pick up a domestic abuser and take them to jail to get them away from their victim while collecting evidence and statements... Those are all people that are presumed innocent under the law... They may spend only minutes or hours in jail as police gather and verify their information... Ru…

>Those are all people that are presumed innocent under the law... They may spend only minutes or hours in jail as police gather and verify their information... Run their prints to see if their given name is false and their a criminal with a warrant for their arrest... Etc....

They may. But we're talking about those in pretrial detention, which excludes all the folks you're talking about. And the average length of pretrial detention is 50-200 days.

Would you be able to keep your job, pay your rent/mortgage and care for your children if you were sitting in jail for 3-6 months?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#243

Post by sokoloff »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #226
sokoloff wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The specific question is “can you be his bondsman as I was for my colleague?”

No. You'd have to go to a 3rd party that is licensed by the state. You can usually find the businesses around courthouses or jails. They are often open 24 hours a day and fairly brightly lit.

Ah. There were a half-dozen of those on the way to the jail. I seem to recall my colleague had a choice of posting $300 with a commercial bond agent who would then post the $2500 with the court or anyone could post the whole $2500 in cash at the jail directly. (Was in Florida in Feb 1997.)

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#244

Post by nobody9999 »

bawolff wrote: post #25
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

>Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle.

And if you can't scrape together $500 or $1000 for bail, how far are you going to get if you try to run away?

It seems to me that those who can afford bail are much more likely to flee than those who can't.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#245

Post by kstenerud »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #219
kstenerud wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're not flight risks and are not able to permanently disappear from the justice system's reach, then they're not the reason the bail system exists.

The main problem isn’t flight or cinemaesque disappearing, it’s simply avoiding arrest and being out in the community reoffending. If you’re busted for dealing meth and get released pending trial and then don’t show you’re probably just out there selling meth again, crashing at a buddy’s place and avoiding getting pulled over.

In Europe, the small minority deemed likely to reoffend are simply kept in jail pending trial. Are you saying that people likely to reoffend should not be allowed to do so unless they can afford the cash bail (which will be reimbursed once they show up to trial)?

Wasn't the purpose of bail an incentive to ensure people show up to their trial? How would expanding the scope of bail's purpose to "keeping people from reoffending" work?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#246

Post by Fjolsvith »

hospadar wrote: post #229

Lots of speculation in the comments is answered by the article itself: - There's little/no evidence that cash bail increases the rate at which people show up for trial - People are (shocker) better able to defend their innocence when they haven't been rotting in jail pre-trial - People are less likely to commit other crimes before trial if they have a shorter stay in jail - Recidivism rates are lower when people spen…

Cash bail funds the capture of people who do not show up for trial.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#248

Post by specialist »

pySSK wrote: post #100
specialist wrote: post #74

Someones, somewheres has done a better job of handling the accused pre-trial. Start there. Give me a name. Show me a role model to emulate. Then tell me how we get from here to there. But even better, just tell me what you want. Give me action steps, some talking points. Because you had me at "Hello." I really don't need a PhD thesis relitigating western philosophy since Plato. (Ditto each and every other progressive…

The article is quite clear in discussing the problem and solutions. When I don't understand a post about, let's say Rust, I acknowledge the gap in my knowledge instead of asking the software engineering community to dumb stuff down.

I just learned this issue is on the CA State 2020 ballot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_California_Proposition_25 (h/t SSC.)

Seems noteworthy?

Advocating a Yes vote is a simple, concrete call to action.

Seems reasonable?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#249

Post by ars »

dragonwriter wrote: post #71
ars wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or medical system. Poor people get medicaid, which is actually pretty decent insurance since it's private (non government) insurance, paid for by the government. It's actually the middle class that has it hard: Too rich for medicaid, too poor to easily afford the deductibles. (I know this is an unpopular opinion, but things were better before Obamacare - deductibles were much much lower.)

> Poor people get medicaid, which is actually pretty decent insurance since it's private (non government) insurance, paid for by the government. Medicaid isn't consistently private insurance paid for by the government; though “managed risk” through outside (sometimes still publicly operated; several of them in California are county-run) plans is an increasingly popular model, though many states continue to have tradi…

> and lots of money, effort, and propaganda has expended

I don't know anything about propaganda, I just know that my insurance got way way way worse after ACA.

If you think every such report is propaganda you are not being honest with yourself.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#250

Post by specialist »

vikasg wrote: post #221
specialist wrote: post #74

Someones, somewheres has done a better job of handling the accused pre-trial. Start there. Give me a name. Show me a role model to emulate. Then tell me how we get from here to there. But even better, just tell me what you want. Give me action steps, some talking points. Because you had me at "Hello." I really don't need a PhD thesis relitigating western philosophy since Plato. (Ditto each and every other progressive…

How is this comment that adds zero value considered "civil"? Oh, right. Because it fits right in with the bullshit reflexive contrarianism around here.

Whinging and navel gazing are necessary and fine activities. For a while.

But at some point, one has to transmute outrage into action. Adapt, grow, assume agency.

This issue is settled. The smart people figured out better solutions. The public supports reform. This stage requires the hard work of organizing and lobbying.

My only regret is assuming Caruso (author) is American. Alas, he's in the UK. So he probably wouldn't have known that bail reform is on CA State's 2020 ballot.

--

Have you ever taken a CPR class? One of the action steps is to point at someone as yell "Call 911!" as you start checking vitals. If everyone is just standing around trying to figure out what to do, the victim (patient) dies.

Activism, effecting real change in the real world, is a bit like that.

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