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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#201

Post by throwaway316943 »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #140
samatman wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. I don't support cash bail, personally, but it's worth noting that some amount of the bail money can be converted to a bounty for the apprehension of those of the accused who go on to skip trial.

From a non-US person, the whole Bounty system, now that is where things truly hit the Blade-Runner-esque dystopia level.

Not really, it’s not as if it’s an old west wanted dead or alive thing. It’s actually pretty mundane. They even made a crappy reality TV show about it.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#202

Post by beerandt »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #140
samatman wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. I don't support cash bail, personally, but it's worth noting that some amount of the bail money can be converted to a bounty for the apprehension of those of the accused who go on to skip trial.

From a non-US person, the whole Bounty system, now that is where things truly hit the Blade-Runner-esque dystopia level.

3rd party bounty hunters are a pretty rare thing. Most of the time it's the same bail bondsman who facilitates a suspects release that comes looking, since the bondsman doesn't get their money back from the court until the suspect shows.

Which is the whole point.

And that bondsman likely required the suspect to list and confirm the name, address, and phone number of every family member, employer, and close contact they have.

Probably 95% of cases are the bondsman just calling the suspect's family to get them to encourage compliance.

An angry moma is going to be more effective than any manhunt.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#203

Post by FeloniousHam »

kstenerud wrote: post #187
throwaway316943 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who will skip trial and go underground are the reason this system exists. These aren’t professionals with mortgages.

> These aren’t professionals with mortgages. Really? What kind of people are they?

The kind who can't/won't make a living within the bounds of the law. I've known a few characters personally who have been in and out of jail, and they did not have mortgages or steady jobs that gave them skin in the game of Good Behaviour.

None of them were flight risks though.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#204

Post by kstenerud »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #166
kstenerud wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Europe doesn't have bail bonds, and seems to function quite well. People don't run away, because running away from a criminal prosecution means your current life (house, possessions, career, friends, family, etc) is over. People who actually are flight risks (due to the nature of the crime, extensive assets out-of-country, etc) can be held in jail pending trial, but that's pretty rare. OR consider it this way…

Western Europe barely works. Bringing one data point: my ex landlord wasn't really the owner of the house and was scamming rich landlords who had too many properties to control them properly. He also scammed tenants (eg. Not returning deposits). The London metropolitan police jailed him, plenty of evidence and testimonies. He was released nonetheless, he escaped to Dubai (where he has family), he came back to the UK…

So because the London police aren't willing to invest time and effort into a crime that you feel strongly about, Western Europe barely works?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#205

Post by ColoradoDev »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #186
jstanley wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but you can't really argue your way around: > This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

> This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law Ok, but it's not the same half million on any given day. A huge number of those people got picked up the night before and will be out (on bail or otherwise) by the end of the business day. Incarcerating people is expensive. Even if getting them out doesn't involve the state getting an interest free l…

>A huge number of those people got picked up the night before and will be out (on bail or otherwise) by the end of the business day.

Interesting. I'm curious to see the statistics you are pulling. Do you mind sharing a link?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#206

Post by abstractbarista »

jstanley wrote: post #144
dragonwriter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while…

OK, but you can't really argue your way around: > This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

I'm rather OK with that.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#207

Post by gowld »

jopsen wrote: post #175
jokethrowaway wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Europe barely works. Bringing one data point: my ex landlord wasn't really the owner of the house and was scamming rich landlords who had too many properties to control them properly. He also scammed tenants (eg. Not returning deposits). The London metropolitan police jailed him, plenty of evidence and testimonies. He was released nonetheless, he escaped to Dubai (where he has family), he came back to the UK…

The lack of prosecution has more to do with priority than lack of bail. Scams can be hard to prosecute, and the harm inflicted on victims is mostly financial. Personally, I would love to see more internet scammers (spammers in particular) prosecuted, but if I think hard about I can recognize that there might be crimes it more important to investigate.

Money is how people buy food. You need a super strong social safety net to say people don't deserve to buy their own food.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#208

Post by kstenerud »

FeloniousHam wrote: post #203
kstenerud wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren’t professionals with mortgages. Really? What kind of people are they?

The kind who can't/won't make a living within the bounds of the law. I've known a few characters personally who have been in and out of jail, and they did not have mortgages or steady jobs that gave them skin in the game of Good Behaviour. None of them were flight risks though.

If they're not flight risks and are not able to permanently disappear from the justice system's reach, then they're not the reason the bail system exists.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#209

Post by sokoloff »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #133
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I don't know. I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. If I remember correctly, we can reduce folks not showing up by simple measures, like calling to remind folks of trial dates and making sure folks have transportation to get to trial. Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking c…

What does forced to use a bondsman mean? Just that you can’t post your own bond from your pocket (which some jurisdictions allow, but how often does one have a bail amount of money in their pocket)?

I bonded someone out a few decades ago and instantly became a bondsman by so doing. (I have no other connection to the industry before or, thankfully, since.)

Based on the stream of paperwork I received threatening me with loss of bond money I posted, I’m not sure he ever returned to take care of the matter.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#210

Post by gowld »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #133
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I don't know. I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. If I remember correctly, we can reduce folks not showing up by simple measures, like calling to remind folks of trial dates and making sure folks have transportation to get to trial. Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking c…

Bail bonds fees are about 10% of bail bonds. You don't get any of your bond fee back because you got a 90% discount on bail. It's essentially a payday loan, with all the pros and cons.
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