Abolish the Cash Bail System • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#141

Post by mtgx » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:13 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #25

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

> It should be relative to your ability to pay

No, it shouldn't. It could be based on a TON of other things instead: take the ID, passport, driver's license, legally prevent them from leaving the city, etc etc.

Obviously, none of them are perfect, but I don't think they are generally worse than ability to pay. Especially for rich people, ability to pay bail means nothing, so they could very easily leave the country if none of those other interdictions are set anyway.

So the bail system it's really just an oppression tool against the poor. Not unlike debtors' prisons, really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#142

Post by josu » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:14 AM UTC

teekert wrote: post #125

As a non-US person watching certain American series on Netflix just blows my mind. For example, my wife is currently watching "Good Girls" in which we see the following things that really make me never want to live in the US (I wonder if this really happens though, can someone confirm?): - You can pay to stay out of jail so only poor people stay in jail after a crime, before the trial (guess OP proves this is real).…

If you want to learn more about the US judicial and prison system you should listen to the third season of Serial.

>Serial is heading back to court. This time, in Cleveland. Not for one extraordinary case; instead, Serial wanted to tackle the whole criminal justice system. To do that we figured we’d need to look at something different: ordinary cases.

>So we did. Inside these ordinary cases we found the troubling machinery of the criminal justice system on full display. We chose Cleveland, because they let us record everywhere — courtrooms, back hallways, judges’ chambers, prosecutors’ offices. And then we followed those cases outside the building, into neighborhoods, into people’s houses, and into prison.

https://serialpodcast.org/

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#143

Post by throwaway17_17 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #83

bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

How do you reconcile this with the presumption of innocence? Is it ok to make an innocent person pay a burdensome amount until they are exonerated?

In a vast majority of US jurisdictions, the presumption of innocence is a ‘right’ that only exists for the defendant’s lawyer to y’all about at trial. Almost all law enforcement interaction and pre-trial court proceeding operate under an inference of ‘named defendant is more likely guilty than not’.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#144

Post by jstanley » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #130

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while…

OK, but you can't really argue your way around:

> This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#145

Post by throwaway17_17 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #80

unishark wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny story but the public defender jumped at the chance to "go out back and fight". And the judge got first sanctioned then lost his job. And I rather doubt the 85 percent is dominated by innocent people accused of first degree murder pleading it down to 1-5.

I was being kind of sarcastic with the 1-5 -> 20+, but the point still stands, you can look at being home to see your child finish high school, or be a grandfather to a teenager when you are released.

I assumed your remark was serious and in my experience that is an accurate statement of how prosecutors work. In my jurisdiction until July of 2018, three burglary’s or three selling marijuana convictions could in fact result in a manditory life sentence and people will certainly take the 5 year sentence as opposed to risking the 20 years or possibly life.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#146

Post by throwaway17_17 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:27 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #78

javajosh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an expert, but I imagine the conviction rate is high because prosecutors make it the path-of-least resistance to freedom. Competent legal assistance is expensive, and building a defense is also expensive and time-consuming. So I wouldn't say that an 85% conviction rate implies anything about the innocence of pre-trial prisoners. Moreover, I think it is dangerous to do so, lest it be a circular argument: why did y…

It would be interesting to see data on how many charges are dropped. You are correct that cases are submitted to the DA, they look at all the evidence and decide whether or not they will prosecute. A big part of that is "can I even get a conviction?" So you'd expect a relatively high conviction rate just based on the fact that cases where conviction is unlikely are filtered out before they ever get to trial.

The data, as amazed by organizations like the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, tends to show that prosecutors accept upwards of 80% of charges submitted for prosecution by law enforcement and that grand jury’s will indict upwards of 95% of cases presented to them. [1] The common phrasing amongst lawyers is that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich and that a DA will accept as many charges at the highest level they can and that they’ll see what might stick later.

1 - Those grand jury numbers are why the Breonna Taylor non-indictment is so angering

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#147

Post by throwaway17_17 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:32 AM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #66

ars wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Isn't bail adjusted based on the persons financial status? Unlike road fines and the like, it's one of the few things that do take into account a persons wealth.

>Isn't bail adjusted based on the persons financial status? Is it? I'm unaware of any evidence of that. If you could share some with me, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Almost every state has factors required By statute to be Considered when setting bail. One of those factors is, almost always, the financial ability of the defendant to give bond. Doesn’t mean it is factored appropriately, but the law states that it should matter.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#148

Post by jacobush » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:33 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #78

javajosh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an expert, but I imagine the conviction rate is high because prosecutors make it the path-of-least resistance to freedom. Competent legal assistance is expensive, and building a defense is also expensive and time-consuming. So I wouldn't say that an 85% conviction rate implies anything about the innocence of pre-trial prisoners. Moreover, I think it is dangerous to do so, lest it be a circular argument: why did y…

It would be interesting to see data on how many charges are dropped. You are correct that cases are submitted to the DA, they look at all the evidence and decide whether or not they will prosecute. A big part of that is "can I even get a conviction?" So you'd expect a relatively high conviction rate just based on the fact that cases where conviction is unlikely are filtered out before they ever get to trial.

As long as you remember "can I even get a conviction" does not mean, "do I even think the defendant is guilty".

It means just that - "can I even get a conviction".

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#149

Post by mywacaday » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #130

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while…

Jail or prison, either way you have list your liberty.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#150

Post by londons_explore » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

By not going out on bail, you get to reduce your sentence by 'time served' right?

That means, if you think there's a good chance you're going to be convicted, it might actually make more sense not to post bail. Then you'll end up released at an earlier date.

If you've already lost your job and can't afford rent anywhere, it might also make sense - getting a job and renting a place are hard to do, and to do all that only to later be convicted and sent to prison and end up defaulting on your rental contract and being declared bankrupt - might not be the best move for your post-prison prospects.