Abolish the Cash Bail System • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#81

Post by kelnos » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:55 AM UTC

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #41

techsupporter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destroying the system to fix them. “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.“ - Justice Blackstone I don’t understand why and how we got so far away from the idea that state punishment is the last resort, instead making it the first. Especially in the States, we do so many things that, even in the moment we…

Suffering is on a scale. Its better that a few innocent people sit around for a few days than one guilty person getting out and killing someone. The risks should be evaluated and the result being keeping innocent people waiting for as little as possible while also preventing criminals from getting away.

> Its better that a few innocent people sit around for a few days than one guilty person getting out and killing someone.

A suspect jailed and awaiting trial for murder would likely not have bail as an option. Eliminating cash bail doesn't mean eliminating the ability to hold people who are an extreme flight risk or who are likely a danger to others.

"Sit around for a few days" has more consequences than your dismissive attitude implies. Many people who land in jail like this will lose their job if they "sit around for a few days". If they're people who are already living on the margins of society, it's pretty likely that losing their job might, just might, make them turn to crime to make ends meet, even if they hadn't committed one in the first place.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#82

Post by snypher » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:55 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #76

You know, systems were established for a reason . It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor. We have arrested people pay cash bail so that we have some forcing function to ensure that they don't flee. And maybe a little bit to provide people the incentive not to commit crime in the first place. I don't know why, but that seems to be considered disc…

>Maybe if people are experiencing hardship from being held in jail, they shouldn't commit crimes?

However people held in jail may not have committed a crime, in fact should be presumed to be innocent even if they have committed a crime.

Also at a bail hearing a judge will determine the person's risk of flight, and if they did in fact have means and motivation to flee they will be held without bail.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#83

Post by mulmen » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:55 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #25

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

How do you reconcile this with the presumption of innocence? Is it ok to make an innocent person pay a burdensome amount until they are exonerated?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#84

Post by kepler1 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:56 AM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

...regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status...

Are you f'ing kidding me? Regardless of what crime you commit, you should be able to go home and see your family?

What ridiculous world are you advocating for here? Do you even think about the implications of your ideas?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#85

Post by nobody9999 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:56 AM UTC

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #41

techsupporter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destroying the system to fix them. “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.“ - Justice Blackstone I don’t understand why and how we got so far away from the idea that state punishment is the last resort, instead making it the first. Especially in the States, we do so many things that, even in the moment we…

Suffering is on a scale. Its better that a few innocent people sit around for a few days than one guilty person getting out and killing someone. The risks should be evaluated and the result being keeping innocent people waiting for as little as possible while also preventing criminals from getting away.

>Suffering is on a scale. Its better that a few innocent people sit around for a few days than one guilty person getting out and killing someone.

Firstly, pretrial detention averages 50-200 days, with some sitting in jail for years without trial. Secondly, the vast majority of those in pretrial detention are there for non-violent crimes. Thirdly, about 60% of the population of jails in the US are in pretrial detention.[0]

Remember, these are people who have not been convicted of any crime.

Calculate how long could you keep your job, your house and/or custody of your children if you were sitting in jail? Two months? Six? A year?

After you do that, consider that a large segment of Americans would have a hard time scraping up $400 for any sort of emergency -- especially if they can't work because they're in jail.

If there is a genuine flight risk (much more likely for those who can afford bail) or evidence that the accused may be a danger to the community, they should be held until trial without the opportunity to be released. But only if there is actual evidence that this is so.

Otherwise, you're essentially criminalizing poverty.

[0] https://www.pretrial.org/get-involved/learn-more/why-we-need...

Edit: Reorganized for clarity.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#86

Post by matsemann » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:57 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #76

You know, systems were established for a reason . It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor. We have arrested people pay cash bail so that we have some forcing function to ensure that they don't flee. And maybe a little bit to provide people the incentive not to commit crime in the first place. I don't know why, but that seems to be considered disc…

> Maybe if people are experiencing hardship from being held in jail, they should try not to commit crimes?

So you're just gonna assume everyone that's arrested is guilty even before the trial?

You are also misrepresenting or misunderstanding dismantling of the police. It's not necessarily about using less resources in the neighborhoods, but about using them correctly. If someone is needing a welfare check, maybe send in a person trained for this and not cops with guns blazing, for instance.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#87

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:57 AM UTC

jennyyang wrote: post #8

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

[deleted]

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#88

Post by aqme28 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #84

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

...regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status... Are you f'ing kidding me? Regardless of what crime you commit, you should be able to go home and see your family? What ridiculous world are you advocating for here? Do you even think about the implications of your ideas?

Just to be clear-- you're arguing for the person's financial status to determine whether or not they see their family, not their crime.

OP was saying that your financial status should not matter.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#89

Post by kepler1 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #63

bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. Means testing flat-out doesn't work. There are plenty of people who get caught in the system who can afford exactly zero dollars for bail, and I find it damn near impossible…

...I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life.

This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized. You would have the law abiding citizen of these poor areas subject to 10 criminals roaming the streets for the symbol of 1 person not subject to cash bond.

Your own efforts to believe in racial justice by any means undermine the outcome itself.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#90

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #76

You know, systems were established for a reason . It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor. We have arrested people pay cash bail so that we have some forcing function to ensure that they don't flee. And maybe a little bit to provide people the incentive not to commit crime in the first place. I don't know why, but that seems to be considered disc…

[deleted]