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Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#261

Post by zo1 »

LocalH wrote: post #259
zo1 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large scale, automated and auditable camera surveillance coupled with AI, linked directly to a crime + mugshot database. Do it right, and no liberty or privacy is lost for honest individuals. While petty thieves will lose liberty, of course.

How do you propose this system be hardened against abuse? How do you consider that “no privacy is lost for honest individuals” when they’re on camera everywhere they go?

I think a good place to start would be to ask what bad/detrimental thing are you referring to when you say we'd lose "privacy" if we're on camera everywhere we go?

Then we can address each one. Otherwise I'm just shooting in the dark and playing argument bingo.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#262

Post by 0xdeadb00f »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #94
082349872349872 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to think of five eyes + japan (+ india + south africa + south korea + ...) as Oceania.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, also that's already a phrase used to describe a particular region comprising only of two countries you've mentioned (out of 8+)

I take it you've never read 1984? A shame, it's a good novel.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#263

Post by centimeter »

ben_w wrote: post #251
centimeter wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Anything else bad across might abuse” includes things that people can’t possibly delude themselves into thinking it would be rational to outlaw, such as cars and caustic cleaning agents. Of course, shockingly few of these ban-heavy countries, with the exception of the East Asian ones, have considered the much more effective strategy of adopting laws to reduce the number of bad actors . Switzerland is almost unique i…

> Switzerland is almost unique in only adopting laws to reduce the number of bad actors (very strict immigration system) Strict? 25% of Switzerland’s population is foreign-born[1], and they are in the Schengen area, so no passport needed to cross the borders. I’ve cycled through at least three, none of which were even marked. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Switzerland#/...

"Strict" doesn't necessarily mean "don't let anyone in"; in this case it means "have a rigorous validation process to ensure you only let in very desirable migrants".

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#264

Post by pmachinery »

varjag wrote: post #260
pmachinery wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay since you want to pretend you don't understand my point: if around 40 members of the embryonic BND came from the SS, even by the head of the BND's own admission[0] in 1953, does that mean "the BND killed millions of people" is a reasonable statement? Of course not, it's as ridiculous as claiming the KGB, the intelligence agency of anti-Stalinist USSR, killed millions of people, just because an utterly different…

People working in KGB did not "come" from MGB, it was the same bloody organisation, and referring to KGB for NKVD purges is perfectly semantically correct. Also the analogy for "Nazi members" would be CPSU members, who were anyway in all positions of power in USSR. It makes no sense, you are being intentionally obtuse.

Intentionally obtuse is pretending that Nazi Party members in West German institutions simply concerns random citizens who filled out a membership form between 1933-1945, because it was good for their career/life.

We both know the issue is members of the SS, SD, war criminals continued to work in (West) German institutions, including its intelligence service, after post-WWII regime change.

I've already asked you twice, if "KGB" is nothing but a name change from "NKVD", simply state when, in its ~37 year existence, did it engage in the same actions (mass killings) as the NKVD.

We both know this too, though, that the KGB did not kill millions of people, as was the claim, because it was for all intents and purposes a different organization, with different objectives and under different orders from a government diametrically opposed to the Stalinist regime of the NKVD era.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#265

Post by nirui »

leppr wrote: post #218
nirui wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Kitchen knives" went too far to be an example. How about door locks? I still don't get the idea that having a weakened security system could somehow benefit security. Based on many real-life hack stories I've heard, it's usually the "bad actors" who's taking advantage of unsecured apps to attack normal people, this is the very reason why developers are making apps more secure to begin with. Another point is, insecur…

> The point is, even if you've successfully banned encryption in big companies, users will then just add a layer of encryption of their own, and that layer can be very very secure. That's what projects like Maskbook do[1]. The problem with those is that the use of such technology can be detected, and thus the small number of users singled out. You'd need steganography for this principle to work, and AFAIK that's alre…

Those user sticks out because system such as Maskbook was not designed to hide the fact that it carries encrypted data.

However, a system can be designed to do that with ease. You can encode data in video streams with Fourier transform, you can encode data using English words, you can put encrypted data as JEPG payload etc.

"Bad actors" will do whatever it takes to protect themselves from law enforcement, they'll kill the police in a blink if their account balanced out (On the same note, they can also join and control the police from within), let alone to learn to use encryption. It is the normal people who will feel most of the hurt, because after that they don't even have the protection against bad actors.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#266

Post by CryptoPunk »

meekmind wrote: post #31
CryptoPunk wrote: post #8

Government will always be a major threat vector to the population. Encypted communication tools have the effect of creating a wider distribution of power which lessens that threat. I think the trade-off of denying the establishment some control that would empower it to more effectively combat malevolent behavior by fringe elements, in order to better protect the majority from potential abuses and structural exploitat…

I tend to agree. There are already well established methods to investigate individuals suspected of some crime without needing SigInt, but it's more expensive. That's all this is about: cost. It's more expensive and the system would have to dedicate more resources to fewer targets, being forced to prioritize their efforts. Sure, that means that investigating truly bad people will be more difficult. But, that extra co…

One thing that is never factored into reports by security agencies is the threat posed by the state.

So for instance, in the United States federal framework for criminal crypto enforcement report recently published by the US Department of Justice's Cyber Digital Task Force, it states:

https://www.justice.gov/ag/page/file/1326061/download

>>Because of the global and cross-border nature of transactions involving virtual assets, the lack of consistent AML/ CFT regulation and supervision over VASPs across jurisdictions—and the complete absence of such regulation and supervision in certain parts of the world—is detrimental to the safety and stability of the international financial system.161

This takes it as a priori that state institutions having Total Information Awareness with regard to private financial transactions DOESN'T pose a threat to the "safety and stability of the international financial system."

This is an absurdly totalitarian political philosophy and the infrequency in which it's criticized is extremely dangerous.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#267

Post by Barrin92 »

centimeter wrote: post #211
AlchemistCamp wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is fishing legal anywhere in Japan? If so, then do people have to take the fish home before cleaning them or can they prepare and eat them while camping, etc?

Fishermen and scuba divers are, in practice, generally not going to be busted by police for having a normal-size knife in Japan. Of course, this is the problem with the legal strategy of “make it illegal but give enforcement discretion to the police” - it adds a lot of uncertainty to what you are actually allowed to do, it allows the government to convict many normal people of a crime if they want to, and it gives th…

>it gives the police discretion to get people in trouble for arbitrary reasons.

it also gives police discretion to avoid getting people into trouble because of too rigid rules. Many countries have a lot of lenience about the enforcement of relatively harmless drugs, for example.

Lenience and judgement on part of a police force is a good thing, and a necessary thing because reality is complicated and rules don't always make sense. The way you frame the issue just shows that you have low trust in your respective police force, in which case the issue is quality of policing, not rigidity of the law.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#268

Post by hansvm »

ben_w wrote: post #249
noir_lord wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the logic (or lack) with things like that. Are they also going to ban files and bar stock because give me those and you can make something utterly lethal.

A police officer came to my school and told the assembled students that sharpened rulers counted as knives. (I never bothered checking if he was right or making it up).

A strict reading of the law in many US cities classifies nerf and airsoft guns as deadly weapons regardless of the velocities involved. I don't think that gets applied often (ever?), but a few people have gotten deadly weapon charges for using BB guns, so the line isn't too far away. With that as the backdrop I wouldn't be surprised at sharpened rulers being classified as knives (especially as pertaining to laws regarding weapons near schools).

I might be off base here, but I think those kinds of bogus laws are usually applied selectively in situations where any reasonable observer would agree that the perpetrator ought to be charged with something, but there isn't anything better to stick them with. The danger of course is that everyone always being guilty of something allows for less desirable forms of selective enforcement (race, gender, journalism, protests, teenagers), intentionally or not.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#269

Post by joshvm »

LatteLazy wrote: post #163
elmo2you wrote: post #154

> Security alliance worries encrypted messaging apps can be used by bad actors Same goes for kitchen knives. I don't hear them call for banning those, or have every sale of one tracked and monitored (which would only illustrate the lunacy of their "argument" even more).

Actually here in the UK the government did briefly consider banning all knives with points. I know right? Welcome to the nanny state. (from 2005 but it was brought up again last year...) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm#:~:text=%22Off...

This story comes up occasionally and is always misrepresented. Nowhere in the article does it say all knives with points. Nor did the government consider it, beyond being asked to comment on the journal article.

The proposal was from a hospital research group who argued that many stabbings are impulsive and that long knives cause extremely serious penetration injuries. So they suggested banning those knives for home use, or at least blunting the tips.

The response to this is usually "well people could sharpen them?" and sure, but the purpose is risk mitigation. You'd still be able to buy a smaller pointed knife if you wanted.

> The researchers said a short pointed knife may cause a substantial superficial wound if used in an assault - but is unlikely to penetrate to inner organs.

They allegedly consulted with chefs who agreed that if you really need to use the tip, a paring knife would be OK. Anecdotally I'd agree - the only thing I use the tip of my chef's knife for is for opening packaging.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#270

Post by jamaicahest »

jowsie wrote: post #181
innocenat wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are joking, but it's illegal in Japan to carry a locked-blade knives or folding knives with blade longer than 5.5cm. You need a solid reason to carry those, like if you just buy it from the shop (in the original package), or if you are a chef, etc.

Same in the UK, but the police can also decide you don't have a valid reason for a legal to carry pocket knife, and charge you anyway.

Same in Denmark. Perhaps this is standard in a lot of western countries?
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