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A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

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Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#171

Post by redler »

jiggawatts wrote: post #167
skybrian wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like 4k is pretty darned wasteful part of the hedonic treadmill. At a more reasonable resolution, this processing power could be used for higher-end graphics algorithms, better AI, longer battery life, and so on.

I've had 4K monitors on both my work laptop, my PC, and my TV for as long as that was possible. Nearly 7 years. This has cost me thousands and thousands of dollars. My logic is that when I use a computer, it's the monitor that I'm looking at. I don't sit next to the case staring at RGB LEDs. I can't "experience" a processor in any aspect except speed, and that's been perfectly acceptable for a decade. But I'll stare…

I feel this way not only about monitors, but chairs and shoes, and for the same reasons.

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#172

Post by badsectoracula »

saurik wrote: post #146
badsectoracula wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can pretty much assure you that with a 240Hz refresh rate 4K LCD monitor it will look better than your CRT :-) Since you bring up the refresh rate, then i'd assume that you include motion in the "look better" - in which case, i can easily respond with "no, it absolutely does not". I have a CRT next to me which can do 120Hz at 640x480 (which is a low resolution but the CRT is also very small and i use it on a mid-…

I don't know what brand of LCD you might have, but do you have an opinion on the refresh rate settings? My Samsung 4k LCD has a feature I only a few days ago realized I had jacked up to "Fastest" as soon as I got it (from its default of "Standard"). It apparently does something wonky with the backlight? (And without it I think the published refresh rate is nowhere near accurate, as that's like the maximum if you are…

It is an Agon though i do not remember the exact model name[0]. What you refer to is some trick a few high end monitors have to alleviate image persistence. I think some also do black frame insertion (ie. they insert a black image inbetween updates) which also tries to reduce pixel persistence.

Both of them try to mimic how CRTs work (though i think black frame insertion is closer) but as a side effect they affect the image brightness (usually causing everything to become dimmer) and can introduce perceptible flickering. And yes, some monitors are indeed marketed as the theoretical refresh rate you'd achieve with these effects in action - you'd need to find dedicated monitor review sites (e.g. i've heard some good comments about rtings.com, though ignore the scores and look for the metrics... their scores take into consideration stuff you often wont care about) and of course look for comments on places like Reddit's /r/monitors subreddit for people who already bought a monitor.

[0] https://twitter.com/System32Comics/status/131319474720949862...

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#173

Post by garaetjjte »

indymike wrote: post #45
nickjj wrote: post #24

CRTs were really good. They really were. I remember back in the day the HardOCP forum[0] had massive threads about people buying the FW900 in the mid-2000s. It definitely achieved legendary status. Sadly I never had a chance to use one. I remember having a 21" NEC that let me play Quake 2 / 3 at 120hz at 640x480 in the mid-late 1990s and I think I paid like $120 for it back then from one of those refurbished monitor…

For a long time the big advantage of LCD was just size and energy use. You lost a lot of the clarity with the conversion from analog VGA or SVGA signal in devices that predated DVI and HDMI connectors. It would be really hard to trade in my 28" 4k display for any CRT I've ever had.

> You lost a lot of the clarity with the conversion from analog VGA or SVGA signal in devices that predated DVI and HDMI

VGA connection on non-crap hardware and cables should have identical image to digital connections.

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#174

Post by ddingus »

golem14 wrote: post #134
ddingus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they don't really twinkle like the heat driven, blinker style incandescent lights do. I loved to watch the pattern on the ceiling as a kid. It would change in subtle ways. Never the same, but sometimes really close. I got a set and I am scared of them. Fire hazard. But I do run them once in a while for young ones at Xmas time. Just so they can check it out.

I have had the same feeling about early cfl lamps. Turning those on seemed to make the rooms darker and more dingy instantly

Yes! We tried to like those and had the same impression.

Amount of light seemed good, but quality was in the dumps.

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#175

Post by buildbot »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #154
imstate wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CRT monitors do have a faster response time and higher refresh rate (I've seen up to 640x480@480hz But you would be sacrificing fidelity for this "competitive advantage".

You might find this note[1] interesting to read. I would love to see a commercial off the shelf cathode ray tube (CRT) that could do 480 Hz, so please share with us a link if you can find it in your notes. A CRT monitor, with a refresh rate of 480 Hz, allows just 2 mS (2.083333 mS to be precise) for excitation of the phosphor. As you know, (here is a similar explainer [2]) the phosphor is excited by the arrival of el…

Somewhat tangential, but Dicomed also made pretty special large format digital backs at one point [1] that really have yet to be eclipsed in terms of chip size (definitely in quality). Interesting they also produced what sounds like a really high quality digital to film solution too.

[1] http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9604cs.html?LMCL=xIZMrP

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#176

Post by agumonkey »

BearOso wrote: post #126

> On a CRT monitor, the screen is coated in millions of phosphor dots, with one red, green, and blue dot for every individual pixel. Not true. The number of dot triads is usually greater than the number of pixels. The distance between them is specified as the “dot pitch,” which serves as a physical resolution cap. In aperture grilles they’re continuous RGB vertical lines, with the dot pitch being the horizontal dista…

I loved the warmth of this blur. When I sold my old mitsubishi diamondtron, I tested it before shipping it. And watching an old divx made me feel all confused. It looked nicer .. warmer .. something.

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#177

Post by sigstoat »

oblio wrote: post #155
tuxracer wrote: post #139

Please don't let CRTs come back in style. After a while they tend to develop this headache inducing high pitched tone almost akin to tinnitus that is emitted constantly while they're powered on. It seems to be so high pitched most people cannot hear it at all but if you're one of the lucky few who can it can actually be really disruptive. Unfortunately it's also often loud enough to hear through doors, walls, etc...…

Besides that (I have the same problem), there's the obvious "electron GUN pointed at your face/eyes" problem.

maybe if you spoke a different language you wouldn't be bothered?

electrons can't travel very far in glass, or atmosphere, which is why the tube has a vacuum inside of it.

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#178

Post by skybrian »

jiggawatts wrote: post #167
skybrian wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like 4k is pretty darned wasteful part of the hedonic treadmill. At a more reasonable resolution, this processing power could be used for higher-end graphics algorithms, better AI, longer battery life, and so on.

I've had 4K monitors on both my work laptop, my PC, and my TV for as long as that was possible. Nearly 7 years. This has cost me thousands and thousands of dollars. My logic is that when I use a computer, it's the monitor that I'm looking at. I don't sit next to the case staring at RGB LEDs. I can't "experience" a processor in any aspect except speed, and that's been perfectly acceptable for a decade. But I'll stare…

A larger monitor I can understand, but on a laptop, how can 4k resolution be visible if it's... too small to see?

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#179

Post by nottorp »

balfirevic wrote: post #156
nottorp wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "monitors" you mean TVs? Or did you buy some of the $3-4k monitors that seem to be available? At a quick google there's nothing under 3k and they're either 21" (too small) or 55" (fine for console gaming but not for programming if you ask me).

According to this youtube video [0], LG's OLED TVs work well as a monitors, at least the 48 inch one. Can't vouch for the quality of that channel though, and it is a sponsored video. Regarding size for programming, I use a 40 inch monitor and wouldn't mind additional width. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzp3fF6AL88

Funny, most programmers complain they don't have enough height. Me included.

Say, are there any 16:10 oleds? :)

Edit: Hmm, one 40" 4k instead of 2x24" 1920x1200. Maybe.

Not that LG has any 40" oleds, the smallest i see (locally) is 55".

Re: A 20-year-old CRT monitor can be better than a 4K LCD (2019)

#180

Post by ddingus »

ddingus wrote: post #72

I love CRT displays myself. The standard 50/60hz is a bit rough, unless one is working on a high persistence phosphor. Older monochrome, amber, green screens often have that phosphor. I like how simple they are to drive too. Managing a high resolution analog stream takes far fewer resources. For personal electronics, retro fun, I recommend one. Glowing phosphor in a glass tube just rocks! There were variations too. I…

Just a late edit:

My favorite thing to watch on CRT displays is well produced SD programs. They look really good.

At the peak of SD, I had tuned a great Sony to near what a PVM can do. Watching DVD movies on that via RGB OR component in a dark room was a good experience. Huge dynamic range. The occasional trail from a bright entity in the program. Real black.

In many ways, many of us did not experience what was lost in the tech change. This revival makes sense in some ways.

Look at vinyl. It is a similar thing. The overall experience is really good. Gratifying.

Fact is, where there are limits, there is art. A great vinyl production is something I appreciate a lot. A similar one done digitally actually sounds better, but the art is not there.

The CRT is art. We had limits and the CRT bubbles up out of that just nailing it.

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