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We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

thebellows.org

201–210 of 397 posts

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#201

First off, you can have both. Green new deal doesn't ban reactors or anything. Second, I'm on the fence over whether I support more reactors and not because nuclear==bad. I trust the technology, but my concern is whether we can maintain a stable political environment for the decades/hundred years required to responsibly take care of nuclear. Buying into a fission reactor means you pay billions up front, but you also…

If nuclear is so safe then why the subsidized insurance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93Anderson_Nuclear...

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#202

From the article: "No nuclear energy program has ever launched without heavy state intervention — the capital costs are just too high for private entities to take on." I think this misses the real reason. High capital costs are no barrier to private financing as long as the eventual profits will accrue to the investors . But in this highly-regulated industry, investors can't put money into nuclear plants thinking tha…

> I think this misses the real reason. High capital costs are no barrier to private financing as long as the eventual profits will accrue to the investors.

What about the risk premiums for disasters. Isn't it only economical if states accept the cost? If we wouldn't accept an owner of a nuclear power plant to go bankrupt before cleaning up ,after a Fukushima scale accident they'd be forced to either have an insurance that made it uneconomical, or deposit many times more than the reactor costs up front, for cleanup. Neither is viable. It's always subsidized.

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#203
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear that right now we should roll out wind and solar as fast as we can. However, once those reach high penetration, costs increase rapidly as you attempt to reach 100% clean energy. At that point it helps a lot to have clean dispatchable power. Nuclear plants we start today can fill that role, in areas without available hydro. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511...

Nuclear would be utterly terrible for filling in the last part of a renewable-dominated grid. As in, ludicrously expensive, compared to other non-nuclear, non-fossil alternatives. The article you point to talks about "firm, low carbon sources". This kind of source for this last bit would be something like hydrogen, not nuclear. A nuclear reactor operating at 10% capacity factor to "fill in" for renewables would be pr…

They specifically cited nuclear. I don't think operating it at 10% capacity factor is what they mean.

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#204
Nuclear power is, by far, safer than fossil fuel power. The problem is that it has a branding deficit.

The BP logo is a green-yellow sun; it's happy, because it's capitalism-- shiny and happy on the surface, and please don't read the fine print-- whereas most nuclear projects require government involvement, and government doesn't invest money into advertising or branding, preferring quiet competence (when you hear a lot about your government, that's usually because someone screwed up). So, people have a relative over-focus on the problems with nuclear power (which are serious, and need to be addressed) compared to other sources of energy.

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#205
Do Nuclear plants really create that many jobs though? Sure it's labor intensive during construction but it's highly specialized work and doesn't exactly create a lot of working class jobs. The key part of the green new deal is the "new deal" bit, not the "green" bit. The "Green" bit is just a good way of spending the money if you are doing a "new deal". If you don't get many jobs per dollar, it's a bad deal.

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#206
post #130
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's trite, but it's never too late to start. Certainly starting now is better than doing nothing in this case, and nuclear may be a good option. I'm not convinced that old nuclear tech is economically viable anymore compared to batteries + renewables. New nuclear tech may be. We need investment there.

It could possibly be too late to start with new nuclear plants, although I'm not totally convinced. If we had them now, nuclear plants would be vastly superior to coal plants for baseload, at least in terms of emissions. The question is, if a nuclear plant takes 20-30 years from project start to being online, how will it compare with what's available then and over the design lifetime (50ish years). Of course, we can'…

Why 20-30 years? Russia started building of Belarus nuclear plant at 2011. It already works and will be completely finished at 2022. Is US nuclear industry significantly behind Russia?

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#207
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define short term; I think by the time a reactor you start today comes online, we are already pretty screwed

It's clear that right now we should roll out wind and solar as fast as we can. However, once those reach high penetration, costs increase rapidly as you attempt to reach 100% clean energy. At that point it helps a lot to have clean dispatchable power. Nuclear plants we start today can fill that role, in areas without available hydro. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511...

> costs increase rapidly as you attempt to reach 100% clean energy.

France has been running at 75%-80% nuclear for 30 years.

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#208
Government subsidies of an industry are an important tool where private sector investment is not sufficient to reach positive feedback loops and move up the manufacturing efficiency curve; either at all, or just not fast enough naturally.

The efficiency of public investment is often measured as the ratio of private dollars you can entice someone to invest in return for the public subsidy.

So for example, offer someone a $5,000 tax credit to install $55,000 of solar panels is a 10:1 private investment factor. This has two very important results;

1) If you have a high private investment factor it means that the thing you are subsidizing has substantial positive economic value in the real world. Those private dollars means someone has skin in the game, and actually wants the product they are buying.

2) It means the net total effect of resources being allocated to the industry is much higher per dollar of public funds being invested.

The problem I have with the Green New Deal or similar ideas is they seem to be trying to achieve a specific industrial energy base irrespective of the economic value of that basis, or the current limits of technology.

First, because it’s being driven primarily by public dollars — literally printed money whose only cost is the debasement of all savings. Second, because the goal is not fundamentally economic, it means a significant sustained drag on the economy due to more expensive energy which is a multiplicative negative effect going into the future.

Energy needs to cost less and less going into the future while also being produce cleaner and cleaner. Cheap abundant energy is a necessity for not only a growing economy but even a matter of equitable treatment and human rights.

Over the next 20 years the technological progress in renewables and storage will naturally and fundamentally change our national energy supply. Similar to the mythical man month theory, we can’t spend 10x as much and get there 10x faster.

Smart and efficient public spending with high ratios of private dollar participation has been and will continue to be successful in motivating an economical shift to clean energy. I don’t think we want to or should be spending trillions of dollars here, because frankly most of it will be wasted.

The fundamental solution to cleaner energy is in making the clean energy solutions abundantly cheaper and more reliable. Anything else is akin to trying to stay warm by lighting money on fire.

Re: We Need a Nuclear New Deal, Not a Green New Deal

#210

Urg. "We're not going to solve this problem, so let's argue about all the solutions we don't gave the time or money or interest to actually implement".

The thing to remember about every major social/political issue is that the organizer class needs the issue more than they need the solution. Once you view the world through this lens the world begins to make more sense.
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