Live data from Hacker News

Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

asia.nikkei.com

231–240 of 281 posts

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop spreading learned helplessness and donate to Electronic Frontier Foundation: https://eff.org .

Yes, but the EFF’s main focus is the US. What could people in the remaining five countries do?

In the UK, the Open Rights Group[0] and Liberty.[1]

[0] https://www.openrightsgroup.org/

[1] https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop spreading learned helplessness and donate to Electronic Frontier Foundation: https://eff.org .

It's hard not to feel helpless. Consider the Iraq war. The largest worldwide protests the world has ever seen, but the US and UK didn't give a shit. Saddam didn't have WMDs, so the US and UK governments made up "evidence". The UN vote failed, so the US strong armed the UK into joining them in a ploy to blackmail UN members for votes. The US and UK went to war anyway, even though the UK's own legal advisor had previou…

The US didn't need to strong-arm the UK; Blair was very much a willing participant.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#233
post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

Face-to-face talking is also unbreakably encrypted. Is that a threat vector we need to address? Really, we should start sewing mouths closed to close that vector permanently, am I right?

Not following your slippery slope argument.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#234
post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

> makes the job of law enforcement harder Do I want to make it harder for the law enforcement of the CCP occupation in Xinjiang to do their jobs? Hell yes. Law enforcement of the DPRK (North Korea)? Law enforcement of the Iranian regime? The law enforcement that lynched George Floyd and many other Black, Indigenous, and PoC Americans? What about the law enforcement that seizes people's cash in the airport without cha…

Sorry, not following how this counters any of my points. Shenanigans via anachronistic laws or corrupt cops isn’t related to encryption, and we know sophisticated criminals can employ their own privacy tools.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#235
post #48
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offering lawful access to widely deployed encryption is hardly an extreme view. Our IC and their partners, as well as our bureaucrats, are mostly in agreement. An extreme view might entail banning certain forms of math on the internet entirely, rather than simply regulating the widely deployed frictionless math.

Legally mandating government wiretaps in every major method of online communication, subjecting every citizen to having their private life potentially scrutinized with no trial, is fairly extreme, yes.

If I understand right, in this example FB would hold the keys to recover the cleartext and turn it over to law enforcement only when compelled to do so with a warrant.

This isn’t extreme at all.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#236
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard not to feel helpless. Consider the Iraq war. The largest worldwide protests the world has ever seen, but the US and UK didn't give a shit. Saddam didn't have WMDs, so the US and UK governments made up "evidence". The UN vote failed, so the US strong armed the UK into joining them in a ploy to blackmail UN members for votes. The US and UK went to war anyway, even though the UK's own legal advisor had previou…

The US didn't need to strong-arm the UK; Blair was very much a willing participant.

Yes, that's very true, I was actually going to put that in brackets but forgot!

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beware, government is not those who command it. If there was some real democracy out there where citizens all should be actively implicated in the government (as opposed to supposedly delegate it), then what would it mean to have citizen wanting to increase control on citizen?

> what would it mean to have citizen wanting to increase control on citizen? The breakdown of the rule of law. It’s what happened in Athens and is why pure direct democracy doesn’t work: the tyranny of the majority [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Somehow, this argument only gets deployed theoretically to justify per se minority rule, never to critique actually harmful policies enacted by a majority. It’s not like a minority in power is any less capable of tyranny.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is fishing legal anywhere in Japan? If so, then do people have to take the fish home before cleaning them or can they prepare and eat them while camping, etc?

Fishermen and scuba divers are, in practice, generally not going to be busted by police for having a normal-size knife in Japan. Of course, this is the problem with the legal strategy of “make it illegal but give enforcement discretion to the police” - it adds a lot of uncertainty to what you are actually allowed to do, it allows the government to convict many normal people of a crime if they want to, and it gives th…

Yes, this. As the old Soviet saying went, "show me the man and I'll show you the crime."

When you place the burden on the people and not the state - often through "common sense laws/regulation" - you inherently enable subjective and arbitrary enforcement of the law.

This unfortunate trend not only creates and enables petty tyrants, but disproportionally afflicts the most vulnerable in society and politically disfavored minorities.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer than 200 people die every year in the US (~1 in 1,500,000) from rifle homicides, fewer than the number of people who die from kicks and punches or blunt objects, and yet rifle platforms such as the AR-15 are one of the most popular targets of anti-gun lawmakers and are heavily regulated in many states. Saving lives is not a rational explanation for the political strategy of anti-gun activists. If it were, I wou…

The opponents to your argument would state "one life is too many". The retort is then usually the Benjamin Franklin quote "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Finally it ends with 'do you trust current authority?' and depending upon the social circle you will get various answers.

> The opponents to your argument would state "one life is too many".

Cough cars, police officers, food that doesn't taste like grass and cardboard, cough, cough.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#240
post #45
post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

If by "less sophisticated criminals," you mean "anyone too stupid to google 'encrypted chat app'," then I doubt they were ever much of a threat, especially for any kind of serious criminal conspiracy beyond selling a few baggies of drugs.

We would need statistics to assert one way or another. I suspect it’s the opposite: give people the means to easily maintain their own communication networks completely out of view of the government, and some will abuse it for other kinds of low level crimes beyond petty drugs: stalking, for instance.

I’d also bet that many criminals (those beyond petty drug pushers) aren’t even sophisticated enough to understand what’s at play here, and will use FB messenger regardless of the encryption implementation. In this case, offering a means to recover encrypted comms in exceptional, warrant-backed circumstances would only be of help towards criminal investigations.

Post reply on HN