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Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#31

Post by meekmind »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #8

Government will always be a major threat vector to the population. Encypted communication tools have the effect of creating a wider distribution of power which lessens that threat. I think the trade-off of denying the establishment some control that would empower it to more effectively combat malevolent behavior by fringe elements, in order to better protect the majority from potential abuses and structural exploitat…

I tend to agree. There are already well established methods to investigate individuals suspected of some crime without needing SigInt, but it's more expensive.

That's all this is about: cost. It's more expensive and the system would have to dedicate more resources to fewer targets, being forced to prioritize their efforts.

Sure, that means that investigating truly bad people will be more difficult. But, that extra cost means that the average well-meaning person won't be nearly as vulnerable to bad actors who use Total Information Awareness for nefarious purposes.

This shouldn't really be controversial now, in-fact it's a well established principle in criminal law called Blackstone's Ratio.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#32

Post by vkou »

CameronNemo wrote: post #16
vkou wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. How is this really different to government-mandated microphones and cameras in your house, school, workplace, etc? It's different because you're voluntarily giving information to a third party (Facebook), which the government is asking to share with police. You may not agree with it, but that's the difference. It's a pretty substantial one.

So if I rent my apartment, the government can compel a landlord to place recording devices in the residence without serving me a warrant?

It could, if there weren't a century or two of legal precedent for treating your home differently from your phone calls.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#33

Post by ShorsHammer »

SheinhardtWigCo wrote: post #9
sorethescore wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need to make them mandatory, most people already have cameras and microphones in their homes, schools and workplaces that the government can access. This is more about getting access to the social graph.

I don’t think that is accurate. Just as with end-to-end encrypted messaging apps, they would have to use targeted 0-day exploits to access the cameras and microphones in people’s homes. End-to-end encryption doesn’t protect the social graph. They already know who is talking to who; they just don’t know what is being said.

> targeted 0-day exploits

"this app wants access to your microphone: YES/NO"

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#34

Post by 0xy »

ios14 wrote: post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

Law enforcement can't even prevent a mass shooting when the shooter is repeatedly reported to federal law enforcement (Pulse nightclub shooter). How do you think this level of access will allow them to solve crimes?

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#35

Post by ios14 »

ponker wrote: post #30
ios14 wrote: post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

Interesting points but I’ve never seen a comment like this anywhere but downvoted to oblivion.

Forgot to add: I don’t trust the consumer devices including a fully patched brand new iPhone. I am far more concerned about the various private interests abusing data access, data brokers, hackers potentially getting into my endpoint directly or to any of my consumer cloud assets, than I am about lawful access to recoverable encryption

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#36

Post by ios14 »

0xy wrote: post #34
ios14 wrote: post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

Law enforcement can't even prevent a mass shooting when the shooter is repeatedly reported to federal law enforcement (Pulse nightclub shooter). How do you think this level of access will allow them to solve crimes?

Bananas and bowling balls.

Based on your description, the situation you described is a shame and a failure of law enforcement to keep us safe. Not an encryption issue.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#37

Post by MaikuMori »

ponker wrote: post #30
ios14 wrote: post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

Interesting points but I’ve never seen a comment like this anywhere but downvoted to oblivion.

Because it's quite extreme view.

Apps should protect users and police should seek to end crime. Only when these two needs cross we get something fair. If one side gives in we all lose.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#38

Post by markus_zhang »

ios14 wrote: post #35
ponker wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting points but I’ve never seen a comment like this anywhere but downvoted to oblivion.

Forgot to add: I don’t trust the consumer devices including a fully patched brand new iPhone. I am far more concerned about the various private interests abusing data access, data brokers, hackers potentially getting into my endpoint directly or to any of my consumer cloud assets, than I am about lawful access to recoverable encryption

This. I'm also more concerned of private parties gettingy info than the gov. Gov is going to get whatever they want one way or another, but private parties getting my info is far worse.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#39

Post by meekmind »

ios14 wrote: post #27

Frictionless E2EE at scale is cancerous on society and the FYEV/JP alliance know this all too well. As this subject has been iterated over many times, will keep this comment short. * FB deploying frictionless, unbreakable encryption at scale makes the job of law enforcement harder, and makes it easier for less sophisticated criminals to get away with conspiracies (a word which, by the way, simply refers to two or mor…

I think society ought to address the fundamental issues that create criminality rather than build some panopticon control-grid that assumes everyone is a criminal by default.

I sympathize with law enforcement, most of them just want better tools with the genuine desire to catch as many of the bad guys as they can. The problem isn't that, it's that those tools once established and ubiquitous represent a lever of control so powerful that the temptation for the bad guys to obtain them will be so great as to be unavoidable.

If someone could guarantee to me that such tools would be used for good with practically impenetrable safe-guards against abuse, okay I could probably live with that. But no one can make that guarantee in good faith.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#40

Post by ios14 »

MaikuMori wrote: post #37
ponker wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting points but I’ve never seen a comment like this anywhere but downvoted to oblivion.

Because it's quite extreme view. Apps should protect users and police should seek to end crime. Only when these two needs cross we get something fair. If one side gives in we all lose.

Offering lawful access to widely deployed encryption is hardly an extreme view. Our IC and their partners, as well as our bureaucrats, are mostly in agreement.

An extreme view might entail banning certain forms of math on the internet entirely, rather than simply regulating the widely deployed frictionless math.

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