Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole • Hacker News Board

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#91

Post by DavidVoid » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

hexbinencoded wrote: post #6

I laugh when I read this because the DataHand was so much better but inefficiently manufactured and badly-priced. Five motions per finger well, macros, and mouse control 20-something years ago.

It was definitely ahead of it's time and it's a shame there's no commercially available product like it today.

The Azeron gaming keypad [1] has a similar design but it's mainly intended for gaming so you'd have to get two of them and do some remapping to use it as a proper keyboard.

I think the lalboard [2] and the other DIY efforts in this thread [3] are probably the closest thing to a modern DataHand right now.

Here's someone typing at 120 WPM on a lalboard [4]. It looks so effortless when compared to QWERTY [5].

I do wish we'd start to see some more mass produced DataHand-like designs. I've never used one myself but it does seem like it'd be comfortable to use.

[1] https://www.azeron.eu/

[2] https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.800

[3] https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMhOIgrdeE0

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Ukh74gJYo

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#92

Post by DavidVoid » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

bootlooped wrote: post #21

hexbinencoded wrote: post #6

I laugh when I read this because the DataHand was so much better but inefficiently manufactured and badly-priced. Five motions per finger well, macros, and mouse control 20-something years ago.

Have you used one? I have always wondered how people find the side to side finger motions to be, in terms of strain and ergonomics. It feels like an unnatural movement. To be clear I've never used one myself.

It's not a DataHand, but here's someone typing on a modern DIY version of one [1]. The side motions don't look too unnatural to me.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMhOIgrdeE0

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#93

Post by kzemek » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

HeadsUpHigh wrote: post #87

jerezzprime wrote: post #85

Why is there not an ergonomic keyboard with trackball or some other cursor device built in, so I can use the cursor and mouse buttons without moving my hands out of place? I currently use (and love) am Advantage 2, but I would happily drop another $400 on an ergonomic keyboard with mouse.

Check the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. It has a trackball module.

It will have a trackball module (if everything goes to plan). The modules are still undergoing the manufacture process, the last newsletter said they are delayed and expected "closer to end of November".

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#94

Post by this_user » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

Arainach wrote: post #61

bbbobbb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What don't you like about the replacement (nit the sculpt, the actual new design)? I consider it strictly better (namely because of the space bar being better).

1) The new Office Key is worthless, in my way, and cannot be remapped. Same for the emoji key. 2) Whatever the button on the left they threw between Ctrl and Windows destroys my mental memory constantly. I was hitting it all the time and never wanted it. 3) They moved Num Lock off the Numpad. Every time I need to find it I have to search because the new location is so counterintuitive and stupid. 4) Rather than one c…

Num lock is annoying, but for me the F6 key is the bigger issue. Even after half a year or so, I still regularly hit the wrong key.

The new pressure point took some getting used to, but I like it now in comparison to the 4000. The only real issue with that one was how easily it would break from spilling even just a small amount of water. I must have lost three of those that way over the years. Allegedly, the new one is more water resistant.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#95

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

jerezzprime wrote: post #85

Why is there not an ergonomic keyboard with trackball or some other cursor device built in, so I can use the cursor and mouse buttons without moving my hands out of place? I currently use (and love) am Advantage 2, but I would happily drop another $400 on an ergonomic keyboard with mouse.

[deleted]

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#96

Post by questionfor » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

Guys if you are in the market for split keyboards and can operate a soldering iron, the endgame is Quefrency 2 (60%, you actually don’t need more) or Sinc (TKL I think - without the numpad but with macro row) from keeb.io with Zilent switches. It’s programmable through QMK (so you can use layers).

You can print out decent cases for it (although I prefer aluminum plates) and the switch quality you get with Zilents is far beyond anything offered by pre-built vendors. It’s about 1-2 hours to put together, you only need to solder switches which is super easy and kinda fun. Also you can customize the layout, meaning the size of keys used (1u backspace etc etc). Once you put it together any of these keyboards work OOB now programming is required and there is even a really nice new app (Via) that allows to do all the mapping (even lighting if that’s your thing) via GUI.

They use standard layout so you don’t have to relearn (I have Ergodox and I used it once - whatever the benefit it may offer over split keyboard is negligible compared to the downside of having to adjust to new keyboard and then possibly mess up decades worth of typing habits, so using regular keyboard which happens often still would suddenly feel awkward.

I have both (Quefrency 1 not 2 though) and not affiliated with Keeb people at all, just a happy customer.

Also I run both with blank keycaps so I guess I am a touch typist? Other keyboard I have are Ergodox, Kinesis Edge and Microsoft Sculpt. Quefrency / Sinc are simply leagues ahead of any of those, I can’t imagine using anything else.

I saw the split Ultimate Hacking keyboard and it looks nice and idea to have a custom thumb cluster or trackpoint it enticing, but the bottom row on Quefrency / Sinc covers maybe 80% of possible use cases I could come up with for thumb cluster and QMK layers + Karabiner Elements or similar easily handles the rest of the 20%. Losing the Zilent switches in favor of Kalih that the UHK uses is not worth any of the added customization options.

AMA if you’re curious, again, this may read like an ad, but i am in no way affiliated

EDIT: also I did go down the split keyboard path because I started to get serious elbow pain (tennis elbow) which was in part related to climbing but got really aggravated by the regular keyboard. Then I started to feel numbness in my pinkies and that was actually scary. It is beyond me how people who spend 6-8 hours typing can use regular keyboards after they turn 30

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#97

Post by questionfor » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #7

petercooper wrote: post #3

Quite the rabbit hole and definitely worth the read :-) This seems a good place to bring up an odd experience of mine. I've had carpal tunnel for decades but no longer get many flare ups. After trying numerous keyboards, the solution turned out to be using Apple's Magic Keyboard and whatever their huge trackpad is called. The key for me seems to be low key travel, a smallish keyboard (to avoid any stretching), and av…

My solution was a Theragun, trackball mouse and a Truly Ergonomic keyboard.

Is Theragun noticeably better than, say a plastic roller?

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#98

Post by questionfor » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

jerezzprime wrote: post #85

Why is there not an ergonomic keyboard with trackball or some other cursor device built in, so I can use the cursor and mouse buttons without moving my hands out of place? I currently use (and love) am Advantage 2, but I would happily drop another $400 on an ergonomic keyboard with mouse.

I am seriously considering putting together a tiny trackpad to have it located someplace between the two halves of my Sinc. It does seem there are some tiny trackpads for sale, but in the end they all seem a bit too big. I really just want to be able to scroll up / down left right and drag things. Maybe trackpoint could help idk

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#99

Post by morsch » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

bsimpson wrote: post #63

It's amazing that we constantly use tools with dozens of buttons permanently fixed to them, but rarely think about how we might yield those buttons to our own purposes. We just accept the defaults without considering other possibilities. Also gets into the idea of personalized UI more generally. You can imagine something like Photoshop ought to adapt what tools it shows based on how someone uses it. Then again, that…

Darktable, the free photo postprocessing software, lets you assign a hotkey to pretty much any slider (there are many sliders in darktable). While pressing the hotkey, the mouse wheel adjusts the slider, regardless of whether it's currently visible or not.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#100

Post by nine_k » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #84

dkersten wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape Just took a look, doesn't really look much difference. I mean the 3d curvature of the keys, your hand is kinda in a semi circular channel. I just find it comfortable, especially to reach the furthest rows of keys from the home row. Its not a huge deal, just something I like about the Kinesis. I also use the Kinesis foot pedals -- does something similar…

The Moonlander lets you angle the thumb cluster seprately, where the ergodox ez is a single flat plane. For the bowl shape, you'd need to look at something like the Dactyl Manuform I mentioned. Many split keyboards transfer keypresses from one side to the other via simple audio cables, I believe footpedals could be spliced in there too, but that's just speculation.

Most often the audio cable carries serial port signals (not proper RS232 afaict but logically a com port). Splicing in a pedal should be doable, as long as you don't press it simultaneously with a key on the "remote" part of the split keyboard.