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Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

blog.scottlogic.com

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Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#61

Post by Arainach »

bbbobbb wrote: post #45
larzang wrote: post #23

I would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had just kept making the Natural 4000 forever. Logitech has some 20+ year old designs they keep producing because for some people they're perfection, and I'd hoped Microsoft would continue likewise since it's been well over a decade with the 4000 too. But nope, it's dead, and the replacement isn't nearly as good.

What don't you like about the replacement (nit the sculpt, the actual new design)? I consider it strictly better (namely because of the space bar being better).

1) The new Office Key is worthless, in my way, and cannot be remapped. Same for the emoji key.

2) Whatever the button on the left they threw between Ctrl and Windows destroys my mental memory constantly. I was hitting it all the time and never wanted it.

3) They moved Num Lock off the Numpad. Every time I need to find it I have to search because the new location is so counterintuitive and stupid.

4) Rather than one central location to check for the status of *lock, I have to look at keys scattered across the keyboard (including in non-intuitive locations such as "not on the num pad" for num lock)

5) They moved the Print Screen button to another place I'd never look for it.

I wasn't a fan of moving F6 to the left hand but would have gotten used to that eventually.

I had used the Ergo 4000 for 15+ years (and various older Microsoft ergos before that), but this made enough frustrating changes that caused me to look into alternatives out there. I ended up on the Kinesis Freestyle Edge. I didn't want to have to learn a radically different layout (Ergodox, Kinesis Advantage) and have to change every time I moved to a laptop or other machine, and the Freestyle gave me a mostly conventional layout, mechanical keys, and a physical split with enough tilt/tent to get to a very comfortable position.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#62

Post by verisimilidude »

polote wrote: post #47
dkersten wrote: post #11

I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I've also found these beneficial: https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/ I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the…

There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones

That’s not an educated take.

Just to take my own example, I’m unable to use the Kinesis Advantage because the bones in my right wrist are curved following an old injury. I’m physically incompatible with that keyboard.

But split keyboards work great for me! I can rotate one side to accommodate my arm’s curve. Kinesis Freestyle is great for this. Ergodox also works.

By your logic, I guess this makes me a fanboy?

My point is that different people have different ergonomic needs, requiring different devices. It’s stupid as hell to turn this kind of thing into in-group status symbol pecking. The market for these devices exists because one size does not fit all.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#63

Post by bsimpson »

It's amazing that we constantly use tools with dozens of buttons permanently fixed to them, but rarely think about how we might yield those buttons to our own purposes. We just accept the defaults without considering other possibilities.

Also gets into the idea of personalized UI more generally. You can imagine something like Photoshop ought to adapt what tools it shows based on how someone uses it. Then again, that would make learning/teaching and sharing really difficult.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#64

Post by codygman »

polote wrote: post #47
dkersten wrote: post #11

I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I've also found these beneficial: https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/ I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the…

There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones

> There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys

> Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys

Maybe it's true, but I bought the Moonlander (same brand as ergodox) for ergonomic reasons. It allowed my hands to be more in line with my shoulders and reduced shoulder pain/tightness I would have at the end of the day.

I want to try the Kinesis advantage, but one thing stopping me is the fact that it's not a split keyboard. I think it's likely my natural arm position is wider than the Kinesis.

> The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones

I think there's some truth to this, but speaking it as such an absolute truth seems misguided.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#65

Post by tmoravec »

bsimpson wrote: post #63

It's amazing that we constantly use tools with dozens of buttons permanently fixed to them, but rarely think about how we might yield those buttons to our own purposes. We just accept the defaults without considering other possibilities. Also gets into the idea of personalized UI more generally. You can imagine something like Photoshop ought to adapt what tools it shows based on how someone uses it. Then again, that…

It's a surprisingly complex problem. As you point out, more personalised UI, buttons, etc. can be more ergonomic and presumably productive. But then the problem with learning, teaching, and sharing arises.

I also see another problem: lock-in and loss of productivity in other environments. For this reason I prefer to stick to everything as vanilla as possible: so that I can use another computer or keyboard and it "just works" because that's what I'm used to anyway.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#67

Post by muststopmyths »

larzang wrote: post #23

I would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had just kept making the Natural 4000 forever. Logitech has some 20+ year old designs they keep producing because for some people they're perfection, and I'd hoped Microsoft would continue likewise since it's been well over a decade with the 4000 too. But nope, it's dead, and the replacement isn't nearly as good.

After ~20 years of using the Microsoft ergonomic keyboards, I switch to a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. I looked at all the other options and this one seemed the most reasonable for my needs (conventional layout, excellent tilt/split).

I've been very satisfied with it. I was skeptical about mechanical keyboards (even though I'm old enough to remember the original ones), but this thing has been a game changer. I will never go back to membrane keyboards, and the ergonomics of the Kinesis are perfect for me.

Microsoft still sells the 4000 for $50 though, and you can get it for as cheap as $35 if you hit an Office Depot with stock (pre-pandemic anyway, have no idea about the current retail situation).

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#68

Post by jgilias »

I have a kinesis freestyle. Really like how I can move the parts around depending on what feels more comfortable at the moment. However, I haven't gone down the layout rabbit hole yet.

Are dvorak, colemak, etc also useful when writing in languages other than English?

EDIT: ok, found the answer to my question - depends on the language, but generally not so much. So, a question to multilingual layout geeks - do you learn the best layout for each language? Or do you just optimize the most used one and stick to whatever is the default for other languages?

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#69

Post by bbojan »

positr0n wrote: post #10
jszymborski wrote: post #5

I've been enjoying my ergodox, but have yet to venture out into the layout customization side of things. The default layout (mostly QWERTY, but split ortholinear) took a week or so to learn and has been totally fine. My only problem with it is that so many of the modifiers depend on my pinkies, which are my weakest finger. Luckily, the default layout maps control as "hold Z key" which means my pinky doesn't need to t…

I've experimented with putting some or all of my modifier keys under non-pinky keys like O on my ergodox. My problem with that is that it forces me to drastically slow down my typing. Otherwise typing a word like "word" will register as 'w ctrl-r d'. I have not found a timeout value that will always register "word" when I'm typing at 110wpm and also Ctrl-r when I'm just lazily hitting that single hotkey :/ It's eithe…

If you're on Ergodox EZ, check out the options "Ignore mod tap" and "Permissive hold", they might solve your issue.

Re: Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

#70

Post by coryrc »

meken wrote: post #24

I, myself, went down a similar rabbit hole years ago. I could probably write a similarly long blog post, detailing all the twists and turns, highs and lows of that period. Reading this was kinda triggering some repressed PTSD from it lol. The highs and lows, thinking that you've found the perfect layout, only to encounter an edge case which there's no solution for and giving up. The continual wishful thinking that "o…

How do you type 2?
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