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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#351

Post by systemvoltage »

donmcronald wrote: post #220
systemvoltage wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the percentage of the market price that the customer paid, not what developer got. You're twisting this. Think about it this way - if Apple was not in the middle, the developer would have received $100. So it is 30% less than what they would have received without Apple cut.

They meant the user pays a 42% premium. If the developer needs to earn $70 they need to charge $100 on the App Store which is a 42% increase for the user. So if you’re talking about passing along those costs it’s +42% on every purchase.

No! The supply-demand curve intersects at $100 and not $70. 70/30 split is an internal transaction and cost of doing business. No different than distributor cut if you’re selling physical products.

The customer paid $100. That is by definition the price. All costs are relative to the price. For example, sales tax or transaction fees.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#352

Post by nikitaga »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #345
simion314 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is bigger then that. Apple takes a 30% cut(and the fanboys will say it is legal and fair and theoretically Apple could make it 99% and should still be legal) and on top of that cut they are forcing you not to inform the customer about alternatives, YES Apple prevents you to be informed by better reals and deciding for yourself what is better, so you could say that Apple is protecting you because you are t…

In addition to the annual $100 (if it hasn't changed) developer fee, should they start charging a per install/download fee. What do you say to that? I also don't like Apple's insistence of "only IAP or nothing at all (not even a mention)" but how do you suggest they make profit from the developer side? Or they should not do that at all? It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's…

> It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's the framework for deciding that?

The framework is called competition. If Apple's IAP billing or the whole app store in general faced any competition on iOS they wouldn't be able to charge anywhere close to 30%.

But Apple designed their platform specifically to prevent that, to retain a tight grip over app distribution and billing.

> I see one solution, and it's far fetched, developers/companies should fund and push for an alternative open platform, along with phone/device makers.

Good solution, but we won't get to it. The moat of Apple-Google mobile duopoly is way too massive to overcome naturally at this point. We need some regulation to reign this in. Mobile computing is just as essential as telephony and internet access. We can't have two companies dictating the rules of the game for the whole economy.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#353

Post by simion314 »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #345
simion314 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is bigger then that. Apple takes a 30% cut(and the fanboys will say it is legal and fair and theoretically Apple could make it 99% and should still be legal) and on top of that cut they are forcing you not to inform the customer about alternatives, YES Apple prevents you to be informed by better reals and deciding for yourself what is better, so you could say that Apple is protecting you because you are t…

In addition to the annual $100 (if it hasn't changed) developer fee, should they start charging a per install/download fee. What do you say to that? I also don't like Apple's insistence of "only IAP or nothing at all (not even a mention)" but how do you suggest they make profit from the developer side? Or they should not do that at all? It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's…

As other said, competition, Look at web hosting, how many choices you have with different prices, features and support.

My main point about he number x% tax is that the number itself is irrelevant, a judge should not decide that if the number is 30 then Apple is fine but if is 31 or 29 then is not fine, so people looking at the number are looking at the wrong thing.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#354

Post by kuschku »

huhtenberg wrote: post #212
fermigier wrote: post #117

This reminds me of a very different time... In 1997, then CEO of Sybase Mitchell Kertzman said in an interview with the French trade magazine 01 Informatique: "Q: When you launched Jaguar CTS, a middleware tool competing with a Microsoft product, you received a rather explicit phone call... A: It was the Mafia! When I hung up, I realized that I had just received a phone call from the godfather who forbade me to sell…

Back in the early '00s there was a popular legend in the startup circles that you don't want Microsoft to be interested in what you do. The legend went that if Microsoft liked you and decided to acquire you, they would give you a binary choice between a low-ball offer and a lawsuit based on their patent portfolio.

It's no legend, and all that's changed is that they don't even threaten you anymore, but straight up outcompete you without you having any recourse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23375056

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#355

Post by forty »

kmbfjr wrote: post #292
forty wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They’re not even close to being a monopoly. They’re a huge company, but there is plenty of competition out there What's the competition for iOS app distribution? There might be competition on the customer side, but as far as I know there are none for the software/app vendors, which is why they can dictate their rules and choose the price (and it's not like customers have each a bunch of smartphones with different O…

What's the competition for clothing distribution inside a Macy's? I mean, c'mon, it is their marketplace. Apple's customers have willingly chosen this, it wasn't forced upon them.

The big difference is that customers can go to Macy's and one of their competitor the same day, they have the choice of marketplace. I don't ask for more, if people were able to have competing marketplaces on the iphone, then I don't think anyone would have a problem with Apple rules or pricing.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#356

Post by nlitened »

coder543 wrote: post #130
nlitened wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My battery life and privacy.

A web app added to your home screen affects privacy much less than a native app, since it is even more sandboxed and restricted, and it even affects battery life less in some areas due to these restrictions. Native apps can schedule background tasks, among other things that would impact your battery life and privacy. So... disagree entirely. Please provide concrete examples of how a native app is less capable of inva…

> A web app added to your home screen affects privacy much less than a native app

Yeah, that’s the perfect web app, and we already have these in iPhone. I added HN home page as a “web app” on my Home Screen, works perfectly. Another “web app” I use this way is a Grafana dashboard, and it even hides web browser GUI, so I’d say it looks and feel “native” enough, and very useful for quickly reviewing charts.

What I wouldn’t like for battery and privacy is if a web app could have _background_ activity — sending data to its servers, having access to mic/camera/sensors, running JavaScript spaghetti non-stop when I am not having the thing in the foreground.

You could reasonably say that it’s exactly what a native app would do, but:

1) native apps are reviewed by an authority I trust, upon every app update — and developers are responsible with their money and ability to make future apps, which makes the apps better for privacy, more conformant with the current OS best practices and UI/accessibility guidelines,

2) native apps are also mostly native code, so they are easier on the battery without sacrificing responsiveness.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#357

Post by toyg »

Spivak wrote: post #206
toyg wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your sibling comment demonstrates, Apple will try and try again to reinstate that policy. One way or the other, they’ll squeeze developers until the last ounce of profit goes to Apple. They are the supermarket chain of software now, and that’s what supermarket chains do.

I mean if you're going to hang Apple for crimes they haven't committed yet then you could at least be more creative about them. Apple is going to force all apps that offer messaging as a feature to integrate with iMessage! Apple is going to force companies with an iOS app to turn over 30% of their total gross revenue! And it's additive! If you don't buy an iCloud subscription Apple is going to randomly delete some of…

You joke, but that’s what they do. Even with no rule change, the obligation to have IAPs has clearly ramped up in the last year or so, simply by getting reviewers go through each and every app-screen with a finer comb. What else will they ramp up in order to increase their profits? All developers in the appstore are effectively sharecroppers; when the landowner needs some money, he can squeeze them at will.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#359

Post by anticensor »

athms wrote: post #287
anticensor wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cut >50% and it's now a extortion with no further analysis. And extortion is illegal in any civilised state, including USA.

>Cut >50% and it's now a extortion Extortion (or blackmail) has a legal definition and this isn't it. In California (where Apple is incorporated and headquartered), the statute states: Extortion is the obtaining of property or other consideration from another, with his or her consent, or the obtaining of an official act of a public officer, induced by a wrongful use of force or fear, or under color of official right.

Wrongful use of fear exists in this context as there is a threat to expel the developer out of Apple ecosystem if he does not accept the cut.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#360

Post by rakoo »

SSLy wrote: post #308
forty wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just side load an other store, then install from there, which I think is acceptable UX since you really just have to install the store once.

Side-loaded stores can't auto-update apps. You have to confirm each app every time. It's unacceptable UX for a typical user.

That's a small price to pay for not being beholden to the decisions of an almost trillion-dollar company from a foreign country.
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