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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#111

Post by snoshy »

simonh wrote: post #107
PureParadigm wrote: post #13

This is a complete double-standard. Telegram messages are user-generated content. Is Apple going to start blocking websites in the Safari app? I'm sure one could find a lot worse things than doxxing by using Safari.

We browsers are specifically excepted from the App Store rules on content. That’s basically because browser vendors don’t have a direct relationship with web site publishers, the way that a service provider like Facebook or Telegram has a relationship with their users that post content. That relationship creates a chain of responsibility.

That may be, but it does not refute the accusation that this is a double standard.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#112

Post by deathgrips »

threatofrain wrote: post #89
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #6

Through what right or means can Apple demand this, though? Telegram is a platform for user-generated content and it seems odd for Apple to single-out those 3 channels/groups specifically - what about the hundreds of thousands of other objectionable groups on Telegram? And why Telegram in particular? Why doesn't Apple give the same ultimatum to Facebook to pressure them to block access to militant ethnonationalist gro…

Apple operates in Belarus and must respond to the pressures of the government. Americans would find it intrusive if Apple was strong enough to tell the US govt to back off.

Americans have the right to tell the government to back off when the government breaks the law. We shouldn't hold everyone to the same low standard as Belarus.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#113

Post by boudin »

_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

This seems to match this post, where apple is asking to remove telegram groups used to de-anonymize law enforcement members.

Apple could do something really simple if they wanted to not interfeer with how people organize their fight: allow to install apps outside of the app store. This would force law enforcement to deal with Telegram directly rather than being able to take advantage of apple's own authoritarian way to run its platform.

Now it's a question of what's apple highest priority, people freedom or profit.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#114

Post by deathgrips »

hyko wrote: post #92

Apple’s defence is IANAG (I am not a government). That’s fine, but it works both ways: we must remember when observing their marketing campaigns that buying nice things will not and cannot create a democratic and liberal world order.

Apple is not a government? That's fine. Let the government regulate them and break them up.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#115

Post by RotANobot »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #79
ghostcluster wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.

How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). At the same time they do not permit side-loading, thereby handing complete control over what users are allowed to install on their devices to authoritarian regimes. T…

> Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though).

Woah. I don’t know how I missed this news for so long.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#116

Post by usrusr »

tmp20201010 wrote: post #26

The relevant piece is this: "Apple is requesting that Telegram shut down three channels used in Belarus to expose the identities of individuals belonging to the Belarusian authoritarian regime that may be oppressing civilians" Exposing identities of individuals is problematic. There are examples of bad things happening when these kind of messages spread through messaging apps.

Exposing identities is indeed a very wide spectrum, ranging from identities of sentenced terrorists (nobody'd question that, usually the legalities revolve around the concept of "public figure" which greenlights a lot of publication that would not be allowed about just any random person) on one extreme to identities of people who were found voting for X in an illegal interception of mail ballots on the other extreme.

It doesn't really matter where exactly Apple would draw a line, from absurd extremes like "you are free to talk about Roman officials infamous for sentencing innocents to the cross, but please do so without mentioning PII" when someone types in Pontius Pilate, to pragmatic, maybe even lazy "don't use the channel for illegal communications (but we can't really police them)". But they should at least try to be somewhat consistent about it and, even more importantly (but much easier!), by no means require secrecy. A secrecy requirement is just lame and reeks of foul play, horribly.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#117

Post by luckylion »

baybal2 wrote: post #108
luckylion wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's Belarus, the government is highly unpopular in the West and not really popular anywhere else. And it's not like China where they'd lose a giant market if they decided to stand up to the government, Belarus has a population of under 10m with an average income of under $6k a year. It might just be about doxxing, but the PR problem remains, of course.

I would be very surprised this being just it, the chance of them finding out about obscure chat channels in a country across the ocean without somebody from Apple having a job monitoring them full time is infinitesimal. This very much reminds me how Google disappeared websites of Russian opposition (weeks after signing some memorandum with kremlin,) and then told "maybe they need to improve their search engine friend…

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that Apple monitors them or actively looks for doxxing, but that somebody (potentially from the police) informed them about it, they took a look and concluded that it's against their policy.

I don't know whether that's a common thing, and I expect many companies wouldn't go the Telegram route and publish the demands because they don't want to put stress on their relationship with Apple.

Discord apparently has channels that are used for similar activities, but I don't know whether Apple has asked Discord to hide those channels from the app, or whether anyone complained to Apple in the first place.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#118

Post by cybrox »

hutzlibu wrote: post #109
afwe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Through what right or means can Apple demand this, though? The App Store is theirs and they will kick you out if they don't like you. Isn't that good enough?

More than enough. It should be noted in bold writing on the TOS, though.

Doesn't change the fact that their behaviour itself is more than shady...

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#119

Post by baybal2 »

luckylion wrote: post #117
baybal2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be very surprised this being just it, the chance of them finding out about obscure chat channels in a country across the ocean without somebody from Apple having a job monitoring them full time is infinitesimal. This very much reminds me how Google disappeared websites of Russian opposition (weeks after signing some memorandum with kremlin,) and then told "maybe they need to improve their search engine friend…

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that Apple monitors them or actively looks for doxxing, but that somebody (potentially from the police) informed them about it, they took a look and concluded that it's against their policy. I don't know whether that's a common thing, and I expect many companies wouldn't go the Telegram route and publish the demands because they don't want to put stress on their relationship with Apple. Discor…

For as long as I know, it's explicitly legally forbidden for private parties in US to engage in foreign relations.

So, "even" by the word of US law, Apple has no permission to engage with Belarus government.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#120

Post by robertlagrant »

simonh wrote: post #107
PureParadigm wrote: post #13

This is a complete double-standard. Telegram messages are user-generated content. Is Apple going to start blocking websites in the Safari app? I'm sure one could find a lot worse things than doxxing by using Safari.

We browsers are specifically excepted from the App Store rules on content. That’s basically because browser vendors don’t have a direct relationship with web site publishers, the way that a service provider like Facebook or Telegram has a relationship with their users that post content. That relationship creates a chain of responsibility.

Maybe we need a chat protocol that does the same decoupling, then.
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