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Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

reuters.com

231–240 of 265 posts

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you are arguing that if all the disinformation published on your site leads to terrorist attacks and worst case, a war (either civil war or think of how disinformation was used by Hitler to convince most of Germany he was doing the right thing), the most ethical thing to do is doing absolutely nothing. Almost everyone want as much freedom of speech as possible but ethically if it leads to huge number of…

Since you mention Germany: What if I told you that Weimar Germany had laws against certain types of speech, which were actually applied to suppress Nazi propaganda, and that the result was obviously ineffective and possibly counterproductive? "In my research, I looked into what actually happened in the Weimar Republic and found that, contrary to what most people think, Germany did have hate‐speech laws that were appl…

Yes, these laws were enacted after WW2 specifically because of the Holocaust, i.e. the horror that widespread hateful propaganda can cause

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#232
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always find it disheartening that people see the propagation of 'bad' information on social-media networks as a bigger risk to society than said networks becoming the gatekeepers of all propagated information. Who thinks this? Are you just assuming that anyone who approves of social media networks removing disinformation also thinks that is a bigger problem than the social media networks being powerful gatekeeper…

The two beliefs are mutually exclusive. If you support social-networks removing what they decide is 'disinformation' by implication you think this is the bigger risk. This is the mechanism by which they become the gatekeepers of information.

I can support CDA 230 (which levels the playing field for startups and large social networks) and call for better moderation everywhere, your view precludes me from calling for better moderation, when in fact it's been a primary goal of CDA 230 all along.

It's really just as simple as do you support CDA 230 or not? Anti-trust concerns are a different conversation, where there should be strong enforcement too.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#233
post #206

I always find it disheartening that people see the propagation of 'bad' information on social-media networks as a bigger risk to society than said networks becoming the gatekeepers of all propagated information. The term 'Orwellian' has become so overused that it seems to have lost all currency. When we're confronted with an actually Orwellian phenomena people seem to either not notice or not care. It's not as though…

>actually Orwellian phenomena

This isn't an Orwellian phenomenon. This is just the typical bad reading of Orwell that Americans have tried to squeeze out of the book because of their free speech fetish.

The central key issue of the book isn't a big scary guy with a mustache stealing your newspaper, it's reality inversion, it's the inability of everyone in society to distinguish between what is real and what is fiction, which is the basis for, not the consequence of totalitarianism. It's the moment when someone blatantly tells a lie, and everyone eats it up, when the world starts to feel unreal and like a bad movie.

The real Orwellian phenomenon is not some kind of scary gatekeeper separating truth from fiction, which is actually a productive use of authority and necessary in any civilisation that doesn't want to turn into a clowncar. What's Orwellian is people going to Facebook, reading blatant lies and untruths, and being unable to distinguish that from what is real. And that is actually caused by the disappearance of gatekeepers, who play a vital role in maintaining liberal institutions.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#234
post #8
post #3

3500 accounts? single bot will make those in several weeks

> Facebook said it had found 10 networks, some of which it had previously identified publicly. I think this is the more important bit, I don't know how they prevent abuse by the same network again. These guys can just manufacture new identities.

908087's reply is dead but should not be. As someone who ran bots since they were simply macros this is exactly what is done.

If you find a botnet you can assume they have an additional ~50% or greater 'clean' accounts on standby for exactly this situation. These become easier to obtain over time via purchasing or black hatting accts, etc. The longer you run undetected the longer you have to stockpile clean accts as you know its simply a matter of time.

I would imagine if 100% of your revenue depends on it you'd be even more prepared.

I know back in the Diablo 2 days some of us were friendly with blizdevs who would warn us of impending banwaves, upcoming updates to server code and whatnot. I'm quite sure the same still applies today only at a far larger scale since back then online communication was still young.

Anyways all this to say if they are experienced and know its coming they wont be down for long, if at all.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand the gut feeling to be suspicious of any large org to filter information. People on this very thread are screaming "censorship!" as if they were Orwell in the streets warning us the end is nigh. I mean, these companies have a monopoly or near monopoly on communications, and they have openly said they are going to arbitrarily remove information that they don't like, without any kind of transparency or ac…

Your first sentence contains the lie, er, problem. >arbitrarily What is arbitrary about it? do you assume that because you don't have a list of their rules of engagement, that you don't have the "warrant" for these takedowns yourself, that it is arbitrary and politically biased in motive? >Telling someone to mask up in early March could get you banned. I straight up think that's bullshit. I would want evidence of tha…

> What is arbitrary about it? do you assume that because you don't have a list of their rules of engagement, that you don't have the "warrant" for these takedowns yourself, that it is arbitrary and politically biased in motive?

I'm sure that they have some internal logic behind the scenes, of course. But it is effectively arbitrary, since their process is completely opaque to us and subject to 'arbitrary' change on their part.

Even if they were completely transparent though, would that even be any better? They exercise absolute control with no accountability, over a platform that is ubiquitous and essential.

> I straight up think that's bullshit. I would want evidence of that occurring or evidence that that was ever laid out as policy.

Their policy is unchanged since then, and is quite explicit. Facebook defers 100% to the WHO. And the WHO defers to China.

Maybe I can't prove to your satisfaction that the WHO is compromised. It is possible that the WHO is just really incompetent. But it doesn't matter, they were deeply ineffective.

And anecdotally, I know people who fled China in December and January. You could leave China if you left via Wuhan airport.

We tried warning people. I tried warning people. I was banned in February for "fake news". There was a preponderance of evidence of what was happening.

Video after video of Chinese solders wearing hazmat suits rounding people up. But according to Facebook, all of it was completely fake, and we should't panic or talk about it.

And I assume you are going to disregard everything I've said, unless I reconstruct timeline of everything I've said, and spoonfeed it to you.

> "Private networks" do it all the time. Newspapers decide what to print, and whether they print lies or truths, and whether they do so fairly. The best journalists put truth first.

Let me be very clear about something: corporations exist at the pleasure of the public. In theory anyway. You have no right to incorporate, and you have to be accountable to the people in exchange the privileges that you enjoy. And most any company their size, especially a provider of infrastructure, is in bed with the government. They did not pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They massively benefit from government subsidy, and they suppress any competitors. They are not a private network.

> These virtual bulletin boards are, as a matter of fact, massive platforms where any small amount of gamesmanship can lead to the very quick spread of information, good-faith or not. To think they should sit and do nothing is folly.

OK, so if disinformation is such a problem, then why should we allow one billionaire creep to be our information policeman?

I should do it. I should be your information police officer. Why not? I've done less creepy things than Mark Zuckerberg.

> What > What

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#236
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion that Obama is a Muslim strains credulity, and it's not a widely held belief. Its a held belief in my family. My very mother, my uncles, and more. Whether or not it is "widely held" has little-to-no bearing on the seriousness I take it. Since my mother believes in it, I will take the alternative fact seriously. > What disinformation? The information you don't like, or the information I don't like? Disinfo…

Did you read anything in my post? What about the widely held belief that Trump colluded with Russia to influence the 2016 Presidential election? The Meueller report was unable to prove collusion. What if big-tech suddenly banned any claims to the contrary on the grounds that it constituted 'misinformation'? Would you call that censorship then?

[deleted]

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My teen years were the second half of the 80s. Like a lot of kids my age, I’d sometimes seek out weird stuff outside of the pre-internet mainstream. One of my favorite books from back then was “High Weirdness by Mail”. Which was a very funny tongue-in-cheek catalog of crackpots, conspiracy theorists, cults, etc. I won’t detail all the weird stuff I got in the mail, but it suffices to say that most of it was roughly o…

So, what, we're gonna decide what's "suitable" for normal people to see? Half of mainstream society, respectable people with respectable jobs, just spent 4 years engaged in a conspiracy theory about Russians and Cambridge Analytica which has quietly fallen apart into "nevermind, we just biffed the election is all". But if one had said that in, say, 2017, they'd be accused of being a Russian bot. Bias passes everywher…

The Russians engaged in a campaign to disrupt the US elections. That is not in dispute. They were effective in this by hacking the DNC and Podesta and by using thousands of troll accounts to pretend there was anything scandalous in that data.

Cambridge Analytica had negligible role in affecting the election. That was just a privacy scandal for Facebook.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#238
post #206

I always find it disheartening that people see the propagation of 'bad' information on social-media networks as a bigger risk to society than said networks becoming the gatekeepers of all propagated information. The term 'Orwellian' has become so overused that it seems to have lost all currency. When we're confronted with an actually Orwellian phenomena people seem to either not notice or not care. It's not as though…

>actually Orwellian phenomena This isn't an Orwellian phenomenon. This is just the typical bad reading of Orwell that Americans have tried to squeeze out of the book because of their free speech fetish. The central key issue of the book isn't a big scary guy with a mustache stealing your newspaper, it's reality inversion, it's the inability of everyone in society to distinguish between what is real and what is fictio…

Yeah freedom in America tends to favor 'freedom to' rather than 'freedom from'. Cutting these disinformation sources off gives us freedom from some amount of manipulation. Meanwhile, if we're more concerned with the freedom to say anything anywhere, whatever limits imposed will be perceived by default in a negative light.

There's merit in examining from both perspectives for any given issue. However, if our objective is a better signal-to-noise ratio of truth in the context of slamming every human's stray thoughts, emotions, and urges into each other in realtime, the 'freedom from' perspective is probably a better approach right now.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#239
post #206

I always find it disheartening that people see the propagation of 'bad' information on social-media networks as a bigger risk to society than said networks becoming the gatekeepers of all propagated information. The term 'Orwellian' has become so overused that it seems to have lost all currency. When we're confronted with an actually Orwellian phenomena people seem to either not notice or not care. It's not as though…

>actually Orwellian phenomena This isn't an Orwellian phenomenon. This is just the typical bad reading of Orwell that Americans have tried to squeeze out of the book because of their free speech fetish. The central key issue of the book isn't a big scary guy with a mustache stealing your newspaper, it's reality inversion, it's the inability of everyone in society to distinguish between what is real and what is fictio…

I am not threatened by obvious lies told by nut jobs. I do feel threatened by the lies (often by omission) told by the New York Times, the Washington post, CNN, Fox and every other gatekeeper often in coordination with intelligence agencies about the middle east, domestic corruption, labor issues etc. Hyping disinformation from anonymous internet troll campaigns while ignoring the truly Orwellian lies being told in every news cycle just means you love big brother.

Re: Facebook, Twitter dismantle global array of disinformation networks

#240
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>actually Orwellian phenomena This isn't an Orwellian phenomenon. This is just the typical bad reading of Orwell that Americans have tried to squeeze out of the book because of their free speech fetish. The central key issue of the book isn't a big scary guy with a mustache stealing your newspaper, it's reality inversion, it's the inability of everyone in society to distinguish between what is real and what is fictio…

Yeah freedom in America tends to favor 'freedom to' rather than 'freedom from'. Cutting these disinformation sources off gives us freedom from some amount of manipulation. Meanwhile, if we're more concerned with the freedom to say anything anywhere, whatever limits imposed will be perceived by default in a negative light. There's merit in examining from both perspectives for any given issue. However, if our objective…

So you just want the thoughts emotions and urges of a tiny number of news editors slammed into my mind in real time. Ever wonder how the US was mobilized to war in 2003? Ever wonder why nothing happened to stop mass surveillance after the Snowden leaks despite massive public outrage? You make me sick.
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